The Democrats do something...intelligent?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Congress is radically over paid given the low quality **** bags who are there and the fact that they produce almost nothing of value. Those lazy self serving pieces of **** won't tackle any of the real issues facing the country and so spend their time "debating" amendments to ban the burning of the flag and to prevent gay people from having equal legal rights as straight people. Let's not forget how they spent weeks, I say agian WEEKS, attempting to grandstand on preventing a brain dead woman's final wish from being carried out.

I agree, except: the purpose of paying Congress isn't intended to compensate them for their contributions to society. It's intended to soften the influence of outside money on their decisions.

edit: for instance, the cost of paying every Congressman $1 million a year is probably less than the money that would be saved on worthless government pork every year.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
That only serves to show the bias.

Whatever.

A society in which the Average income is $12,000 but no one is homeless or hungry is for most a better society than one in which the average income is $25,000 but 5% are poor and 1% go hungry every night.

Debatably; obviously there's some balancing point. I'd rather .001% starve if the rest lived like today's uber-rich than 100% live as sustenance farmers.

In case you haven't noticed, I've been arguing for welfare anyway. I'm not opposed at all to redistribution of wealth; I'm opposed to this particularly bad way of going about it.

NO. BUt then, no society is willing to let og of socialist principles either, like a minimum wage.....

To its detriment.

People like Burke. That dumbass.

Er... and why should I care what Burke says?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'd rather tie a lot of welfare to having a job.

xpost

And that is different from a minimum wage... How? As it stands with the 'welfare to work" laws passed by Clinton in the 1990's you can't spend more then a 24 months in your entire lifetime on welfare and not employed. There are hardly any numbers of long term unemployed on welfare. The current system, rightly, tells these people to get a job (of which there are plenty) but the problem is many if not most of these jobs for low skill people pay minimum wage. A raise in the minimum wage will increase the quality of life of all of our nation's poorest people.

Slower job creation is hardly an issue when many places such as San Diego now have 3.5% unemployment. Our population can't fill many of the jobs we currently create thus we get millions upon millions of immigrants who come here to fill those jobs.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
And that is different from a minimum wage... How?

It puts the burden on society as a whole - where it should be - rather than on the businesses that just happen to employ people who don't even produce enough to support themselves.

Slower job creation is hardly an issue when many places such as San Diego now have 3.5% unemployment. Our population can't fill many of the jobs we currently create thus we get millions upon millions of immigrants who come here to fill those jobs.

I bet low wages aren't much of a problem there, either.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
They should get paid minimum wage because the stuff they pretend is work just isn't worth anything. Not to mention they spend the majority of their time on vacation.

They're radically different from the Parliamentarians I know, then, whose professional/political life is exhausting, and is taxing so much time they can barely do anythoing else, including caring for their families.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I agree, except: the purpose of paying Congress isn't intended to compensate them for their contributions to society. It's intended to soften the influence of outside money on their decisions.

edit: for instance, the cost of paying every Congressman $1 million a year is probably less than the money that would be saved on worthless government pork every year.

Wrong. Congress is paid to perform a service. A service which our current Congress has totally failed to do because they are run by ideologically driven asshats.

You could pay Congressmen a Billion dollars per day and they'd still weasel in more pork then a South Carolina Pork farm because votters like pork and Congressmen need voters to reelect them. Congressmen need to have their pay tied to performance and the current Congress hasn't performed.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Wrong. Congress is paid to perform a service.

Er, sure, maybe now. Congress should be paid to optimize their decision-making.

A service which our current Congress has totally failed to do because they are run by ideologically driven asshats.

And because the whole system is dirty. I really don't care whether they "earn" the money they get, as long as the money we spend on their salary produces a net benefit to society. That's the purpose of government - providing a net benefit to society.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
It puts the burden on society as a whole - where it should be - rather than on the businesses that just happen to employ people who don't even produce enough to support themselves.

Fair enough though Federal law would have to be massively changed for this to come into effect.

I bet low wages aren't much of a problem there, either.

You'd be amazed. People having jobs and people having jobs which pay enough for them to live on tend to be two different things. Currently if you as on aid for families with dependent children, as many if not most young single moms are, then you need to have a job to continue recieving the welfare benifet beyond a certain amount of time. That's true even if the amount you earn from your minimum wage job is less then the cost of child care. I honestly believe that a raise in the minimum wage would decrease the amount of welfare since more people will earn more then the welfare cut off amount.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Er, sure, maybe now. Congress should be paid to optimize their decision-making.

They are. Do you honestly think all of those corporations and unions are giving millions of dollars tto Congressmen out of their good hearts? No. They're bribing, er... I mean "contributing", so that the Congressmen will "optimize their decision-making" in ways which favor the briber, er... "contributor".

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
They are. Do you honestly think all of those corporations and unions are giving millions of dollars tto Congressmen out of their good hearts? No. They're bribing, er... I mean "contributing", so that the Congressmen will "optimize their decision-making" in ways which favor the briber, er... "contributor".

That's my point. I'd rather the money come from the taxpayers than from interest groups.

[Ramo]

Giving them a higher salary won't do anything in terms of reducing campaign contributions. More public financing of elections would do that.

[chequita guevara]

Making elections only publically financed would do that even better.

Interestingly, though SCOTUS struck down Vermont's campaign finance law today, it seems a majority voting against it did so because they felt it wasn't stringent enough.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Making elections only publically financed would do that even better.

Interestingly, though SCOTUS struck down Vermont's campaign finance law today, it seems a majority voting against it did so because they felt it wasn't stringent enough.

I don't know where you got that from... that's not how it was reported.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ramo
Giving them a higher salary won't do anything in terms of reducing campaign contributions. More public financing of elections would do that.

To avoid further threadjacking, I'll agree in general and say that Congressional reform is a complex issue.

[Dinner]

The evil right wingers who were appointed to protect the status quo claimed that preventing wealthy individuals from bribing public officals violated free speech laws. The five who made this outragous claim should be drug out into the street and shot. Bribery of public office holders should never be allowed and make no mistake the millions of dollars are changing hand not for free speech but for bribery.