Third partiers... independants... we've got to vote democrat

[Vesayen]

*ONE* democrat said they would support Lieberman if he lost his primary, but its nice to hear talking points from Republican talk radio repeated here. I think it was Chuck Schumer.

[Drake Tungsten]

Lieberman

[Sikander]

Actually I think the best thing to do is to support parties other than the two odious ones that currently dominate the political system in this country. We desperately need a political realignment, and we aren't going to get it if we keep playing this lesser of evils game. Even if neither of the big two is eliminated / replaced, the vast majority of new ideas / political trends come from small parties. I agree with your disgust, but little else.

[notyoueither]

This would make a funny sig.

I am seriously afraid that 4 more years of America under American rule could permanently end American power on the world stage, politically, economically and military. Vesayen

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by VJ
What kind of an idiot ever votes for a third party in first-past the post electoral system with open primaries, anyway? If you want to change your representatives, you can do it in the primaries. I mean, of course it makes more sense than not voting, but only marginally: Your vote won't matter in the actual election result, it only raises the awareness of the party you voted for, so they'd have better chances in the next election and it of course gives them moral support. I'd only do it if I thought that the winner of the election I'm voting in is already crystal clear so my vote hasn't got any chances of deciding the election anyway.

What do open primaries have to do with it?

If enough people vote for candidates other than the Repubs and Democrats, other parties will gain seats in Congress. Enough of those get elected and the two party system is out the window.

[Dinner]

The basic problem with America is the 28% voter turn out we got in last month's primary election. When no one bothers to vote then of course evil special interest groups take over. America's political process is broken because Americans are to lazy to vote.

Not voting and then complaining about the system is worse then stupid.

[Arrian]

Not paying any attention to primaries is a problem, huh. I'm guilty of that. Then I ***** that the candidates suck.

Hmm.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

Well, I'm convinced to vote Democrat now,

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by notyoueither
This would make a funny sig.

I am seriously afraid that 4 more years of America under American rule could permanently end American power on the world stage, politically, economically and military. Vesayen

Yep. Is this Vesayen's freuedian admission that the GOP better represents America whilst Democrats most definitely do not?

Truthfully GOP suck but Demonrats suck real hard.

[Vesayen]

Typo :/ I obviously meant it may not survive 4 more years of Republican rule.

[Q Classic]

Well you've made your choice. Your choice is to allow American power to potentially end world wide, for our economy to be destroyed, for our middle class to vanish and most important for the constitution to become a worthless document.

And you think the Democrats will change that? The American people as a whole have lost their idealistic, hopeful soul in exchange for blind consumerism and the bliss of ignorance. While our science and technology is still second to none, we're not trying anymore--instead, coasting on our past successes. America, in the direction it's going, led either by Republicans or Democrats who are largely anti-science, anti-progress, interested only in moneyed interests, bought and paid for by corporations and the wealthy, now only seeks the status quo. Indeed, by voting for the Democrats (and the Republicans), you're not asking for change. You're asking for things to stay the same on the ailing, sinking ship.

A good way of ending up second is to act like you're first. That's what America is doing, and frankly, it won't change in the duopoly. A positive (American ideals) multiplied by the negatives of political parties... is still a ****ing negative.

You're sadly mistaken if you think the Democrats are going to save this country--the people have spoken, and frankly, it seems like they don't care if the whole thing goes down the ****ter.

Do you know how little manipulation to the tax code is needed to destroy the little class?

For all their rhetoric, the Democratic Party is currently a party with no ideas outside of, "At least we don't suck as much as them."

That doesn't inspire confidence.

Wrong. A revolution is first off, highly unlikley and it is not a guarantee we will end up with a unified stable goverment after.

Looks like we're doing a smashing job in Iraq.

...more seriously, you're right, there's no guarantee. There's also no guarantee that voting Democratic will effect any sort of change in our current situation.

We are not looking at the same problem, so our solutions are different. The problem I am analyzing is the continued existance of American economic, military and political power and respect for the constitution. It is a more immediate and severe problem then the one you are worrying about.

Wrong. My proposed solution would be a greater shock, but it would rouse the people, the country, and its ideals, out of the complacent slumber it's in now. Sure, America would lose some of its power during the transitional phase--but when stability is acheived, it's entirely possible for it to regrow.

Not this slow, degenerative, Alzheimeric death that we as a nation seem to be going through now.

[Arrian]

At this point, I simply cannot vote for the Republicans. They've been terrible, and deserve to be fired.

I'm fully aware that the guys we would hire instead (Dems) will probably suck too.

But in my opinion, you MUST fire people who do their jobs this badly. Gotta be done.

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

Looks like we're doing a smashing job in Iraq.

...more seriously, you're right, there's no guarantee. There's also no guarantee that voting Democratic will effect any sort of change in our current situation.


Wrong. My proposed solution would be a greater shock, but it would rouse the people, the country, and its ideals, out of the complacent slumber it's in now. Sure, America would lose some of its power during the transitional phase--but when stability is acheived, it's entirely possible for it to regrow.

Not this slow, degenerative, Alzheimeric death that we as a nation seem to be going through now.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
And you think the Democrats will change that? The American people as a whole have lost their idealistic, hopeful soul in exchange for blind consumerism and the bliss of ignorance.

America is going to #### as I described because of the massive corruption of our Republican congress combined with the massive corruption of our Republican president. Democrats are not nearly as corrupt(though still pretty bad) as Republicans. I do not think that Democrats back in the senate will magically fix the problem YOU ARE DESCRIBING. I am giving a specific set of reasons why it is better to have democrats and republicans and in response you are saying that "But this won't solve the other problem!"

Your right, it won't solve the other problem. This problem is more pressing, immediate and important. I think the Democrats can turn around alot of the damage Bush has done. We can work on fixing our democracy when its existance is no longer in danger.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
For all their rhetoric, the Democratic Party is currently a party with no ideas outside of, "At least we don't suck as much as them."

That doesn't inspire confidence.

It does not need to inspire confidence. It is better then the Republicans and the Republicans are so bad right now, that is enough. It is difficult to give a unified political ideology when you don't control the presidency, the senate, or the supreme court, or any media outlets.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Looks like we're doing a smashing job in Iraq.

...more seriously, you're right, there's no guarantee. There's also no guarantee that voting Democratic will effect any sort of change in our current situation.

This does not adress the fact that a revolution will almost certainly NOT occur. Nor does it adress the fact that a unified U.S. is unlikley after a revolution and there is no guarantee a revolution will produce a democratic goverment. Voting Democrat won't fix the system. I never said it did, though you are repetadly harping on that theme. However it will preserve the system long enough for us to have time to change it. A non existant America, or one without liberty can't be fixed.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Wrong. My proposed solution would be a greater shock, but it would rouse the people, the country, and its ideals, out of the complacent slumber it's in now. Sure, America would lose some of its power during the transitional phase--but when stability is acheived, it's entirely possible for it to regrow.

Not this slow, degenerative, Alzheimeric death that we as a nation seem to be going through now.

We are NOT looking at the same problem. You want to make our goverment and our democracy less corrupt and more democratic.

I want our country to continue to exist, liberty to continue to exist and our countrymen to continue to be economically prosperous. All of that is in danger now.

Originally posted by Arrian
At this point, I simply cannot vote for the Republicans. They've been terrible, and deserve to be fired.

I'm fully aware that the guys we would hire instead (Dems) will probably suck too.

But in my opinion, you MUST fire people who do their jobs this badly. Gotta be done.

-Arrian

Also a good point

[Q Classic]

Your right, it won't solve the other problem. This problem is more pressing, immediate and important. I think the Democrats can turn around alot of the damage Bush has done. We can work on fixing our democracy when its existance is no longer in danger.

Vesayen, what I'm saying is that your proposal won't fix a damn thing. It's not going to solve any problem because it's a tiny band-aid on an aortic dissection. Sure, put that band-aid on if it makes you feel better. However, it won't work.

It does not need to inspire confidence. It is better then the Republicans and the Republicans are so bad right now, that is enough. It is difficult to give a unified political ideology when you don't control the presidency, the senate, or the supreme court, or any media outlets.

The lesser of the two evils arguments doesn't work for me. I won't get behind that--don't get me wrong, I'm not voting Republican, but I'm still not voting Democrat.

And since I'm in a blue state, it really doesn't matter who I vote for.

You want to make our goverment and our democracy less corrupt and more democratic.

I want our country to continue to exist, liberty to continue to exist and our countrymen to continue to be economically prosperous. All of that is in danger now.

So, you're okay with the **** that passes for a federal republic government now? You're okay with the anti-democratic stance the plutocrats have? You're okay with the America ailing in so many different regions, from poverty, to health care, to consumerism, just so long as we can have our bread, circuses, and big penises guns?

Don't get me wrong--I like American prosperity. The danger, however, isn't from the Republicans--it's from the government, and the society itself.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
Vesayen, what I'm saying is that your proposal won't fix a damn thing. It's not going to solve any problem because it's a tiny band-aid on an aortic dissection. Sure, put that band-aid on if it makes you feel better. However, it won't work.

Its not as bad as an aortic dissection and a bandaid. Maybe someone’s windpipe has just been crushed and I want to give them an emergency tracheotomy(sp?) with a pen knife and a pen tube, but you want to drive them for an hour to the nearest hospital to give them a new artificial wind pipe.

The patient will still be in danger breathing through an empty pen, but he can then more safely be transported to the hospital.

If you don’t give him an emergency tracheotomy(sp?) and he somehow makes it to the hospital he MAY be better off in the end, since he did not have the imprecise impromptu pen-knife surgery. However it is far, far, far more likely he will die in the mean time.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
The lesser of the two evils arguments doesn't work for me. I won't get behind that--don't get me wrong, I'm not voting Republican, but I'm still not voting Democrat.

And since I'm in a blue state, it really doesn't matter who I vote for.

Does it? Senatorial races can sometimes be quite close. Depending on what state and district you live in, perhaps presidential.

A democratic majority in congress would be more useful now then a democratic president.

Originally posted by Q Cubed
So, you're okay with the **** that passes for a federal republic government now? You're okay with the anti-democratic stance the plutocrats have? You're okay with the America ailing in so many different regions, from poverty, to health care, to consumerism, just so long as we can have our bread, circuses, and big penises guns?

Don't get me wrong--I like American prosperity. The danger, however, isn't from the Republicans--it's from the government, and the society itself.

I am not satisfied with the current state of affairs. I am not alright with a plutocracy. However the alternative of American liberty permanently disappearing, massive loss of our military ability and significant harm to American standard of living, is worse.

I am not saying that prosperity is better then freedom.

Right now we have a choice between a government which is hellbent on taking our prosperity and our freedom, and a government which will only continue to maintain previous harms to our liberty and perhaps hand us prosperity.

We can only realistically work both towards prosperity and greater freedom, from one of those scenarios.