BBC says "gay" is OK!

[Wittlich]

Ok, sorry for the confusion Drake.

I myself consider this whole "gay" word usage as just another example of heteronormivity of today's society - if things are against the heteronormality mind-think, then they are considered wrong and efforts are then made to make things outside of their beliefs as substandard ... What a wonderful world we live in; in deed. Quite scary if you stop and think about it.

[Drake Tungsten]

The people who started using "gay" as an insult, and the ones who predominately use it now, are people who think gay means "uncool".

That's pretty difficult to accept at face value. You're asking us to believe that the current generation, the most gay-tolerant generation in history, just decided to take the homosexual meaning of "gay" and turn it into an insult that meant "uncool", even though the homosexual "gay" would seem to be enough of an insult to anyone who was truly homophobic. Not content to use the new insult merely to refer to people, as the homosexual "gay" been used, they also decided to apply this new insult to inanimate objects and abstract concepts. And the word, despite being a terrible insult, caught on amongst a huge portion of the relatively gay-friendly youth of today, so much so that it is now a socially accepted word approved by such organizations as the BBC.

You seriously expect me to just believe that this is how it went down because you say it's the only likely scenario?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher
The shades make you look so cool with those rockin' quips.

Mind boggling, like more than half of what you post.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
That's pretty difficult to accept at face value. You're asking us to believe that the current generation, the most gay-tolerant generation in history, just decided to start using the homosexual meaning of "gay" as an insult that meant "uncool", as opposed to "homosexual" (which would seem to be enough of an insult to anyone who was truly homophobic).

"homosexual" is too many syllables to be used as an insult...although "homo" is indeed a common insult among the same crowd that "gay" is used as an insult mostly.

And you're guilty of major spinning here. As a gay guy who went through US (California) jr. highs and Canadian jr. highs and high schools, saying "the most gay-tolerant" may be true, but it's certainly not anywhere near to being what it should be -- even in Canada. And especially in the jr. highs and high schools where "gay" as an insult first started as an insult. Jr. High and High School cultures are extremely homophobic in nature. In fact, "***" was nearly as common as "gay" as a generic insult, except "***" applied only to people (mostly not even people who act "gay" -- it just means "you suck..."). "Homo" was more of a jr. high insult that was replaced by "***" in High School.

I've no idea what planet you're from, but at least in North American adolescent societies, "gay" and "***" are extremely common insults that both stem from homophobia that teens feel -- especially the sexually confused ones themselves. And don't you even think about your next troll where you'll tell me "***" implies the original definition of "group of sticks" or whatever.

[Drake Tungsten]

The older version had to do with "happy" and "light-hearted", not outlandish of flamboyant. That comes with the stereotypical gay comment...

Untrue...

It derives via the Old French gai, from the Latin gaius, or possibly from a Germanic source.[1] The word originally meant "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy" and was very commonly used with this meaning in speech and literature.

The word started to acquire sexual connotations in the late 17th century, being used with meaning "addicted to pleasures and dissipations". This was by extension from the primary meaning of "carefree": implying "uninhibited by moral constraints".

By the mid-century "gay" was well-established as an antonym for "straight" (respectable sexual behaviour), and to refer to the lifestyles of unmarried and or unattached people. Other connotations of frivolousness and showiness in dress ("gay attire") led to association with camp and effeminacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

I've no idea what planet you're from, but at least in North American adolescent societies, "gay" and "***" are extremely common insults that both stem from homophobia that teens feel -- especially the sexually confused ones themselves.

True, but when kids use "gay" or "***" as an insult they mean "homosexual", not "lame". You've yet to show why a bunch of homophobic kids would make the major change of using "gay" as a mild pejorative analogous to "lame" when the homosexual "gay" they were already using to insult gay kids is so much stronger and better an insult. You also don't offer a very good explanation for why the largely gay-friendly young adult demographic that has made the word socially acceptable would so eagerly adopt the word if it so obviously originated as an insult to gays.

[Asher]

That doesn't matter though. Look at the time "gay" became an insult, by far the most common usage -- and the usage most kids were aware of -- was that of homosexuality.

Combined with the fact that "***," "homo," and "queer" are also prominent insults in that demographic, I do not see why it is a stretch to associate "gay" with "homosexuality" when you're talking about a segment of the population that thinks about sex almost all the time...

[Drake Tungsten]

Sorry. Took a little too long on the edit...

[Asher]

What exactly is hard to understand about kids in a homophobic culture using "gay" as an insult? That seems pretty straight-forward to me.

That demographic and culture, at least in North America, is dominated by confusion of many things (not the least of which, sexual) in many people. Kids are dealing with the expectations of their parents (athletes, scholars). Kids are dealing with making friends in an atmosphere of oh-so-much drama. The insinuation of someone or something being gay is almost a societal death sentence, and openly gay kids are usually ostracized quite blatantly.

As a result, well over 95% (last I checked) of people who end up being gay don't come out publicly until after high school. High school is just a place where gay is bad. Simple as that.

People you don't like are fags. That kid that brings milk to lunch is a homo. That shirt is gay.

Gay kids in high school have a hard enough time figuring things out, but the language used by everyone constantly reinforces the idea that gay is bad. It ruins self-esteem. It causes huge emotional problems that take years to fix, if they ever do get fixed.

I don't even care if you honestly think that "gay" as an insult has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality (obviously, I think that is absurd). The fact is, most people do make the connection. Most gay people make that connection. Most kids growing up make that connection.

Using a word that is predominately used to describe a sexual orientation as an insult perpetuates negative connotations that get ingrained in the psyche of young people and contributes to a still largely homophobic society.

Dr. William Pollack has a great series of books about this (and many other topics) relating to boys specifically and growing up through jr. high and high school. Real Boys Voices has several short essays written by gay teenagers in high school that say basically what I've said above.

Knowing all of this, I'm wondering why decent people are even arguing the point. If people are telling you that they find it offensive, arguing semantics about how the origin may or may not be a reference to their sexuality is a futile waste of time. People should have the decency to recognize that using the word as an insult is insulting, regardless of the origins.

[Drake Tungsten]

What exactly is hard to understand about kids in a homophobic culture using "gay" as an insult?

That's not hard to understand; they've been doing it for years with the homosexual meaning of "gay". What isn't obvious, however, is why schoolyard homophobes would assign a completely different meaning to the word "gay" than the one they are used to and apply it as an extremely mild pejorative towards all manner of objects, not just towards people as the homosexual "gay" they are used to is applied. And it's also not clear how a simple schoolyard taunt would manage to become a widely-accepted term amongst young adults worldwide.

Your theory is also complicated by the fact that there is another meaning of gay associated with the outlandish and camp that is much closer in meaning to lame "gay" than homosexual "gay" is. It is also applied to inanimate objects and abstract concepts, like lame "gay" is. And the double meaning it has due to the popularization of homosexual "gay" and the presence of rather flamboyant homosexuals who embody both senses of the term would seem to fit in well with the post-modern, ironic zeitgeist of the young generation that eventually popularized the use of "gay" as a synonym for lame.

Now, I'm not saying I know how "gay" as a synonym for "lame" developed. None of us do. I'm just pointing out that your speculation is far from airtight logically and is certainly not without alternatives, as you have claimed.

[Drake Tungsten]

Knowing all of this, I'm wondering why decent people are even arguing the point. If people are telling you that they find it offensive, arguing semantics about how the origin may or may not be a reference to their sexuality is a futile waste of time. People should have the decency to recognize that using the word as an insult is insulting, regardless of the origins.

Sorry champ, but this battle is already lost. Most people and institutions already consider lame "gay" to be fine and there's really nothing you can do about it. We can humor ourselves discussing theories regarding the origin of the term, but it's ultimately pointless. Even if you are right, it's not going to change anyone's vocabulary. The language marches on, whether you like the direction or not...

[Asher]

That's not hard to understand; they've been doing it for years with the homosexual meaning of "gay". What isn't obvious, however, is why schoolyard homophobes would assign a completely different meaning to the word "gay"

Why would you think it's a "completely different meaning"?

Do you think homophobes think gay people are cool, or "lame"?

Do you think homophobes think gay things are cool, or "lame"?

I do not understand how you can miss the connection. Things that are said to be "gay" in jr. high and high school are essentially things that are rejected for various reasons. The use of the word as an insult is identical to that.

Each time it's used, it's drawing a comparison to sexuality, which is the actual part that is the "insult". Just like how a high school kid would say "Oh, that guy is gay" and mean it in the homosexual sense, due to the culture it's effectively shunning him. The effect is the same when "gay" is used to describe anything they shun.

And I do realize you don't have any "evidence" for this, which I think is a cop-out because "evidence" does not and will not exist for the origin of the insult. What we deal with here in the real world is how it's interpreted by people.

And if gay people (and most people, in general) associate "gay" as an insult to be a direct reference to the sexuality, then that's the way it is. You can argue all you want about the semantics and etymology of it, but at the end of the day we have impressionable children hearing "gay" equate to "lame" or "bad", which is not a good thing for anyone except homophobes themselves.

[molly bloom]

How do you make the name of a group of people an insult ?

Easy-peasy:

TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: jewed, jew·ing, jews

Offensive 1. To bargain shrewdly or unfairly with. Often used with down. 2. To haggle so as to reduce (a price). Often used with down.

ETYMOLOGY: From Jews' supposedly extortionate practices as moneylenders in the Middle Ages.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

As James McDonald puts it:

The truth of it is that words become taboo by tacit common consent.

If everyone accepts that a certain word should be regarded as beyond the pale, then it is; if we all agreed that tea pot were obscene, then it would be.

This process is well illustrated by the word 'bloody'. As an exclamation, 'bloody' is a totally meaningless word with an uncertain etymology. Yet this harmless, vacuous word generated genuine outrage and disgust in 1912 when it was first used on the stage (in 20th Century drama), in Shaw's 'Pygmalion'.

'The Dictionary of Obscenity, Taboo and Euphemism'

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Sorry champ, but this battle is already lost. Most people and institutions already consider lame "gay" to be fine and there's really nothing you can do about it. We can humor ourselves discussing theories regarding the origin of the term, but it's ultimately pointless. Even if you are right, it's not going to change anyone's vocabulary. The language marches on, whether you like the direction or not...

I don't think this is the case, actually.

The word "gay" as an insult has disappeared in university, at least here. I think it's destined to remain an insult by immature, homophobic children and immature, homophobic Americans.

So, "champ", you can continue using the word knowing full-well how people feel about it, or you can be a man about it. And I think as most people grow older and grow a pair, they'll be less inclined to use their sexual insecurity as an insult on other people.

Society is becoming more accepting of gays, just like it was of black people many decades ago. So while sexually insecure Nebraskans continue to call people and inanimate objects gay, the rest of the world will move on to bigger and better things -- like being civilized.

[Drake Tungsten]

Just like how a high school kid would say "Oh, that guy is gay" and mean it in the homosexual sense, due to the culture it's effectively shunning him. The effect is the same when "gay" is used to describe anything they shun.

The kid isn't calling the guy gay because he shuns him. The kid is calling him gay because he thinks the guy likes to **** other guys.

If you can't see the vast difference in meaning between that and calling an uncool ringtone "gay", then I guess we're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this. Can't say I'm surprised...

The truth of it is that words become taboo by tacit common consent.

And vice versa, which has been my basic argument all along. Common consent is the real determiner.

I think it's destined to remain an insult by immature, homophobic children and immature, homophobic Americans.

Yes, the two major voting blocs on the BBC Board of Governors...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

The truth of it is that words become taboo by tacit common consent.

And vice versa, which has been my basic argument all along. Common consent is the real determiner.

So Jews 'consented' to the pejorative use of the word Jew ?


I don't think so. I believe they had no choice- they were after all a minority.

I would be interested to see how the B.B.C. would respond if one of its presenters were to use the phrase 'to jew down' on their show, claiming that it's a phrase in common usage.