BBC says "gay" is OK!

[Lorizael]

I don't feel like making a first ammendment argument, but it's there. Otherwise, I'm still of the opinion that a move should be made to get rid of the negative connotations behind the word gay, simply because I don't see the use in having it insult people.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I frankly think you simply don't have a point (or at least one worth making) and are instead tossing out irrelevancies like "joed up" in an attempt to construct at least the semblance of a coherent argument.

Of course you don't think I have a point because you seem to think its perfectly fine to just insult people for whatever reason suits your fancy.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lorizael
I don't feel like making a first ammendment argument,

No one's saying the government should get involved. People should voluntarily not be jerks. I don't think the government should force them not to be.

[Drake Tungsten]

I don't feel like making a first ammendment argument, but it's there. Otherwise, I'm still of the opinion that a move should be made to get rid of the negative connotations behind the word gay, simply because I don't see the use in having it insult people.

Come on Lorizael, don't back down. Why would you let a few folks on the internet convince you that you're using an "insulting" term when you've got the weight of societal norms and major cultural institutions like the BBC on your side?

Of course you don't think I have a point because you seem to think its perfectly fine to just insult people for whatever reason suits your fancy.

"Gay" as a synonym for "lame" isn't an insult, despite what you or Asher may think. Such decisions are made by the society at large and it's become clear that "gay" is a socially acceptable term. There's really nothing else to say on the matter.

[Lorizael]

What? I'm never wrong, so I can never be convinced of things.

[Drake Tungsten]

What? I'm never wrong, so I can never be convinced of things.

That's the spirit.

[Asher]

Guys named Jack don't get upset when someone says something is "jacked up" because they understand that term is just a natural development of the language and not meant to insult them.

"Jack" meant a mechanical device since the 1300s. I'm willing to bet "jacked up" refers to the mechanical device, and not the name...

[Asher]

What's interesting is that "Jack" the name and "Jack" the mechanical device were devised around the same time.

The name is supposedly an Anglicization of Jacques.

To me it seems like a poor comparison, as both meanings are many centuries old.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm willing to bet "jacked up" refers to the mechanical device, and not the name...

You probably have about as much evidence to back up that assertion as you do to back up the theory that "gay" (as a synonym for "lame") derives from the use of "gay" (as a synonym for "homosexual") as an insult.

[Asher]

It's a pretty obvious conclusion given the homophobic culture in which the insult first surfaced, in a climate where AIDS was an "epidemic" and heavily associated with gay people.

People who don't understand how "gay" became an insult are in denial or too stupid to live.

[Drake Tungsten]

You and che, as far as I can tell, are both relying on a historical/etymological argument that is...

a) Lacking in evidence to support it.

and

b) All but meaningless in determining whether the current usage of "gay" as a synonym for "lame" is an insult.

Given that, I believe I may be excused for not really caring about what either of you has to say on the matter.

[Asher]

What evidence would I be able to procure? It's a ridiculous demand on your part. Since we cannot have evidence either way, we must see who can make the strongest argument based on reasoning. The two arguments I've heard is young jr. high kids using "gay" sarcastically to mean "sad" (eg, "that was a sad/gay movie!"), which is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard...the other being the one where gay is equated to "bad". Which makes complete sense given what we know of where and when "gay" originated as an insult and in what way it was used.

Regarding b) It is not meaningless. The simple use of the word as an insult is an insult to every person that is gay, whether the person using it intends it or not. It also contributes to a culture of homophobia, and amazingly, "gay" is used as an insult most in largely homophobic cultures such as high schools.

[Drake Tungsten]

What evidence would I be able to procure?

Why base an argument on an assertion you know you have no evidence for? I understand that arguing that the usage of "gay" as a synonym for "lame" historically originated as an insult and will therefore always be an insult is really your only option when arguing in the face of accumulating social acceptance of said usage, but it doesn't strike me as a strong argument even if it had evidence backing it up. Without any evidence, it's just speculation and not worth anyone's time.

[Asher]

I think since the reasoning is so strong, and there really is no solid reasoning to the contrary, it can be generally accepted until evidence shows otherwise.

Because it's the only thing that makes sense, unless you want to enlighten me.

[Drake Tungsten]

I think since the reasoning is so strong

The reasoning isn't strong at all.

Because it's the only thing that makes sense, unless you want to enlighten me.

While any speculation on my part is just as irrelevant as yours, I'll humor you...

"Gay" has been used a term to describe outlandish or flamboyant objects or behavior for longer than it has been used as a synonym for "homosexual". It's perfectly possible that this sense of the term eventually came to describe objects or behavior that are lame or uncool, given that outlandish or flamboyant things or people are usually not considered to be hip.