Anti-Semitism Rising Among Israeli Youth

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Seeker
"Nkor is MORE commited to univeralist values than Skor, and look at the two states."

I'm sorry that's a completely ridiculous statement that only someone who has never visited NK would make.

NK is an explicity racist country, through and through, with an active eugenics programme. They believein the superiority and purity of the han race, with laws against race mixing, and they frequently condemn SK for 'dropping ink in the Han river' (expression for allowing dark-skinned foreigners to enter Korea). One of SK greatest 'crimes' in the North's eyes, is race-mixing and immigration. See their reaction on the visit by Pittsburg Steelers player Hines Woods, half-black half korean. He was celebrated in the South, the subject of racist tirades in the North.

The idea that North Korea is 'committed to universalist values' just undermined your credibility drastically in my opinion.

How do they reconcile the above with Marxism-Leninism?

I really didnt know Nkor was like that. If its as you describe it, its NOTHING like Israel.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Im not sure what measure those are? Limiting overall immigration, but making an exception for overseas French of French descent? I dont think anyone would have problems with that.

Indeed people do. As well as the French attempts to protect their culture by anti-English legislation.

Seeker is correct in that a state dedicated to a particular nation is something that would be condemned by many. When France makes laws to slam English, people complain about it and rail against the nationalism.

I didnt know France had anti-English legislation. I DO know that Quebec does. While Ive poked fun at Quebec's language laws, and sometimes I think theyve done things that are counter productive, Im not lacking in sympathy with the concerns that motivate them. And Id certainly never suggest that the US not welcome the Quebec Premier on a visit.

Je me souviens.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Seeker
Yada yada yada lots of people have 'strong historical connections to their homelands' and lots of people have suffered persecution. There's nothing special about the jews in that regard.

My point is not to debate the true meaning of 'Jewishness' my point is that Israel is expressly not a multicultural society like every other modern nation. I don't really care how you define 'Jewishness', as nationality, ethnicity, race, culture, religion etc that's totally irrelevant. What matters is that it is used to create an artificial barrier to people's freedom to immigrate and create a better life for themselves, and that is is an arbitrary barrier.

Keeping in mind that I reject the idea of uniique priveledges based on past suffering, why Israel as a Jewish state? What about Poland as an exclusively Polish state or Ukraine as a special homeland for Ukrainians and only Ukrainians? Should Ukraine forbid the immigration of all non-Ukrainians because of the past history of Ukrainian suffering and their 'strong folk traditions'?

Why not an Israel that is the same as any other modern multicultural state?

Can't you see that it's a terrible double standard that, of any other people in the world, Jews somehome get the right to to a 'pure' state.....and don't get condemned for it??

And just to reiterate, 'strong folk connections to the land'..blah blah..EVERY nations' people feel a strong connection tp their homelland. That has to be seen as a really really poor argument against immigration. That's exact kind of thing the 'MinuteMen' in the US say.

But Israel ISNT pure, and does not ban ALL non-Jewish immigration. It does limit the general right to immigrate, as does almost every country on earth. It makes a special exception for some - which again is not unique.

Does Poland want to limit immigration, but make an exception for Poles living abroad? They have every right to.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


So if the Nazis had expelled all Jews from their lands and siezed their property instead of mass murdering them, then that'd be ok?

Ozzy, I was responding to the following

'is, well, a racist idea, and seems to go against the whole idea of building a better world where holocausts, massacres, 'ethnic cleanising', "papers please" mentalities, etc are a thing of the past."'

Doesnt follow. Killing and torturing people to keep them off your property is wrong, that doesnt mean you have to share your property.

The Jews who lived in Germany were German citizens.
IF Germany had chosen to limit immigration, but make an exception for those with an ancestral connection to Germany, that would have been OK.

Note thats NOT the same thing as the Asian exclusion legislation maintained by the USA. That allowed in people who had no ancestral connection to the USA, and no connection to American culture, but excluded a specific group based on race. Israel does not do that.

[Datajack Franit]

Please call Gypsies.. well.. Gypsies. Roma is a very offensive word.

[atawa]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
You seem to have changfed your position. You earlier posted in what seemed to be protest against people who had a Jewish great grandfather being denied rights under the law of return, but now you say that ANYONE with Jewish "blood" has rights under the law of return. Which do you think it is?

Both

I consider it inhumane for a country to grant citizenship to the parents but not the children of the same nuclear family who imigrate together so yes, it was a protest.

You state yourself that they are not granted citizenship becouse they are not considered to be Jewish, so not of Jewish origin, blood or whatever you want to call it. I'm using your definition here, not my own.


Now please explain where I changed my position

Or did you just join in the general "Israel and Jews are racist" fest you saw going on here?

The state of Isreal reminds me a lot of South Africa under apartheid, but calling all Jews racists would be ridiculous.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Seeker
So where is the post holocaust post world war 2 Roma state? Why do the jews especially need a state based on race but not the equally suffering gypsies?

The holocaust should not be used as a justification for racism.

don't forget the persecution of homosexuals. There should be a homosexual country.

[OzzyKP]

Send them all to Madagascar

Low birthrate but their culture would be fabulous.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Er, the argument was more like: in every country the Jews have lived in for the past couple millenia, they've been persecuted and, most recently, been the target of genocide. The only way to ensure their safety is to give them their own country.

And we'll just ignore that they'd been trying to create it before the Holocaust happened and that had the Holocaust not happened, Israel still would have been created.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
Please call Gypsies.. well.. Gypsies. Roma is a very offensive word.

Isn't it the other way around?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


*sigh*

The entire point of a Jewish state was for it to be, well, Jewish. The idea was, they need their own country because in every other country, they've been persecuted. Obviously the country is going to be formed on ethnic/religious lines.

In essence, they wanted to be "normal", to be able to discriminate against the "other" just like everyone else. What a glorious, wonderful aim.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
How do they reconcile the above with Marxism-Leninism?

How do you reconcile essential Godhood for a supreme charismatic leader with Marxism-Leninism?

You don't.

You just run your damned totalitarian dictatorship.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Isn't it the other way around?

I guess Roma is only an offensive words in the ears of a Gipsy-hating Italian

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


And we'll just ignore that they'd been trying to create it before the Holocaust happened and that had the Holocaust not happened, Israel still would have been created.

Now there's a stretch.

[Az]

a little more view from the inside, if you'll allow me -

All people with a jewish grandma or a grandfather, can get citizenship. so can their spouses, iirc.

combine that with an immigration from a country who has had a wonderful combo of a universal marriage legislation and deeply entrenched array of various xenophobias of different ethnic groups towards each other, and you'll get the situation you're having.

I don't have to venture far. My roommate's dad is eastern ukrainian. His grandma is antisemitic... nuff said.

However, it must also be said that the interaction between the natives and the repatriants is affected much more by the way the immigrants behave than by what does the rabbinical establishment think of them.

kids whose families fared well in the new country will almost always be much more assimilated ( like me ) while people who failed will spiral towards cultural ghettoes - which is a breeding ground for all latent hostility, brought along from the old country, by those whose parents were both russian and antisemitic.

Again, a close example - a good friend of mine is mostly Ukrainian/Polish, however, that doesn't change the fact that she barely speaks russian ( and no she doesn't speak ukrainian, either ... )

different socialization - different people....