Anti-Semitism Rising Among Israeli Youth

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Plus from what I hear conversion isn't as simple a process as in Christian churches. Not to say Christian conversion is like a Vegas wedding, but its a simplier process from what I hear. Like the Christian churches will actually encourage you instead of try to talk you out of it, heh.

yeah. Cause for 1500 years it was illegal for Jews to convert non-Jews, in both Christian and muslim worlds. Folks coming for conversion could well have been informers, trying to get the Jews in trouble. It is in that context that Jewish conversion law developed.

And we are NOT a universalist, proselytizing religion. You DONT have to become a Jew to be in good with the divine. We are a specific people, with specific obligations. Why should we proselytize? OTOH if you DO become a jew, thousands of things that it used to be fine for you to do, become sins. Shouldnt we warn people not to take on these obligations lightly?

Nonetheless, in fact its NOT all that difficult to convert. I know plenty of people who have done so.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Judaism recognizes also conversion as a way to become Jew.

Isn't that great. I, who am not Jewish, could convert, and move to Israel and be a citizen. These kids, who's fathers are Jewish and Israeli citizens, can't be, unless they also convert.

Check the article. These are fourth generation intermarriages. Their fathers are NOT jewish by jewish law. Their fathers are Israeli citizens ONLY because the Law of Return allows right of return to ANYONE with a Jewish Grandparent.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Technically, they aren't Jews, since Judaism says that only children born of a Jewish woman are Jews. That technicality means they aren't ciitzens in Israel, and thus get to live second class lives.

No. Plenty of non-Jews are citizens of Israel (and not just the Arab residents) Under the law of return anyone with a single Jewish grandparent, of either gender, can become a citizen. And its also possible to become a citizen through normal immigration, not under the law of return, though there AFAIK there are not many open slots (some Viet Namese refugees became citizens that way, though, and I beleive there are others)

These folks are non-Jews whose parents got in under a technicality, and now theyre showing how little they have in common with Israel.


The problem with the law of return is not that its too narrow, but that its too broad.

Why should a Palestinian born in Amman not have the right to immigrate, when a Russian, who has no knowledge of Jewish religion or culture, and who isnt Jewish under religious law, but who had ONE Jewish Grandfather, have the right to immigrate?

In 1948 the arguement was that such a person would have been a Jew to the Nazis, and so should have a right to live in Israel. Its time to stop letting Nazi racial policy define "who is a Jew"

At a minimum the right of return should be limited to those who are halachically jewish, or who at least have a strong connection to Jewish religion and culture.

More radically, the law of return should only apply to A. Jews with a deep commitment to Jewish culture - language, history, etc or B. Ones who are actually in flight from persecution. If you are living a safe life in the diaspora, and you dont know a word of Hebrew, or care a thing about Jewish culture, do you really have a claim ahead of that Arab from Amman?

[atawa]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

These folks are non-Jews whose parents got in under a technicality, and now theyre showing how little they have in common with Israel.


The problem with the law of return is not that its too narrow, but that its too broad.

Why should a Palestinian born in Amman not have the right to immigrate, when a Russian, who has no knowledge of Jewish religion or culture, and who isnt Jewish under religious law, but who had ONE Jewish Grandfather, have the right to immigrate?

In 1948 the arguement was that such a person would have been a Jew to the Nazis, and so should have a right to live in Israel. Its time to stop letting Nazi racial policy define "who is a Jew"

At a minimum the right of return should be limited to those who are halachically jewish, or who at least have a strong connection to Jewish religion and culture.

More radically, the law of return should only apply to A. Jews with a deep commitment to Jewish culture - language, history, etc or B. Ones who are actually in flight from persecution. If you are living a safe life in the diaspora, and you dont know a word of Hebrew, or care a thing about Jewish culture, do you really have a claim ahead of that Arab from Amman?

Palestinians born in what is now Isreal can not return to their land but everybody with jewish blood gets an automatic pss.... can you please explain why these laws are not racist

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by atawa


Palestinians born in what is now Isreal can not return to their land but everybody with jewish blood gets an automatic pss.... can you please explain why these laws are not racist

If you wish to discuss the law of return, the moral basis for a right of Jews to return to the land of Israel, the circumstances under which Palestinians fled in 1948, and the rights they do or dont have, and what makes a law "racist" I suggest another thread. Thats something thats been debated at great length here.

It is only germain to this discussion in an oblique way which I thought was clear from my post. You seem to have changfed your position. You earlier posted in what seemed to be protest against people who had a Jewish great grandfather being denied rights under the law of return, but now you say that ANYONE with Jewish "blood" has rights under the law of return. Which do you think it is? Or did you just join in the general "Israel and Jews are racist" fest you saw going on here?

[Alexander's Horse]

come on LoTM, there is clearly a racist paradox at the heart of the Jewish state

[MrFun]

Thanks for the posts, LoTM.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"These kids are fourth generation children of Jewish fathers or the accompanying offspring of non-Jewish mothers of previous mixed marriages "


Note - 4 generation.

Ah, that does make a difference. Still, if yer gonna let the fathers in and make the citizens, you ought to do the same with the kids.

[Kuciwalker]

Reductio ad absurdem, che. They have to draw the line somewhere.

[Seeker]

Why should ones ethnicity have anything to do with ones citizenship?

It really seems to be a double standard for Israel, given that they have condemned others in the past...

Ethnically homogneous,

Korean state...bad (NK)
Boer/English State.....bad (SA and Rhodesia)
Russian state.....bad (Belarus and Rus to some extent)
White State....bad (USA 1920s-60s)
Jewish State....Necessary??

Quoth sesame street: one of these things is not like the others, one of these things is not quite the same...

[Kuciwalker]

Jewish State....Necessary??

Recall that Israel was formed almost immediately after the Holocaust.

[OzzyKP]

So racism is the only defense against genocide?

[Kuciwalker]

Er, the argument was more like: in every country the Jews have lived in for the past couple millenia, they've been persecuted and, most recently, been the target of genocide. The only way to ensure their safety is to give them their own country.

[OzzyKP]

No one is suggesting taking Israel away. I'm a 100% supporter of Israel's right to exist, certainly (and I'd imagine most people here are as well). But for a people persecuted for millenia, don't you think its a bit ironic/hypocritical/sad that as soon as they get their own state they start with their own persecuting?

[Vince278]

Human nature.