Iraq's My Lai

[Zkribbler]

Are you sure? I thought the final attack was March to April.

Although I am pleasantly surprised to see that I nailed the date for the fall of Saigon , when it comes to the date the final offensive began, you're right I'm wrong

The plan was approved in January but the actual offensive did not start until March.

January 8, 1975 - NVA general staff plan for the invasion of South Vietnam by 20 divisions is approved by North Vietnam's Politburo. By now, the Soviet-supplied North Vietnamese Army is the fifth largest in the world. It anticipates a two year struggle for victory. But in reality, South Vietnam's forces will collapse in only 55 days.

January 14, 1975 - Testifying before Congress, Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger states that the U.S. is not living up to its earlier promise to South Vietnam's President Thieu of "severe retaliatory action" in the event North Vietnam violated the Paris peace treaty.

January 21, 1975 - During a press conference, President Ford states the U.S. is unwilling to re-enter the war.

February 5, 1975 - NVA military leader General Van Tien Dung secretly crosses into South Vietnam to take command of the final offensive.

March 10, 1975 - The final offensive begins as 25,000 NVA attack Ban Me Thuot located in the Central Highlands.

March 11, 1975 - Ban Me Thuot falls after half of the 4000 South Vietnamese soldiers defending it surrender or desert.

March 13, 1975 - President Thieu decides to abandon the Highlands region and two northern provinces to the NVA. This results in a mass exodus of civilians and soldiers, clogging roads and bringing general chaos. NVA then shell the disorganized retreat which becomes known as "the convoy of tears."

March 18, 1975 - Realizing the South Vietnamese Army is nearing collapse, NVA leaders meet and decide to accelerate their offensive to achieve total victory before May 1.

March 19, 1975 - Quang Tri City falls to NVA.

March 24, 1975 - Tam Ky over-run by NVA.

March 25, 1975 - Hue falls without resistance after a three day siege. South Vietnamese troops now break and run from other threatened areas. Millions of refugees flee south.

March 26, 1975 - Chu Lai is evacuated.

March 28, 1975 - Da Nang is shelled as 35,000 NVA prepare to attack.

March 30, 1975 - Da Nang falls as 100,000 South Vietnamese soldiers surrender after being abandoned by their commanding officers.

March 31, 1975 - NVA begin the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign,' the final push toward Saigon.

April 9, 1975 - NVA close in on Xuan Loc, 38 miles from Saigon. 40,000 NVA attack the city and for the first time encounter stiff resistance from South Vietnamese troops.

April 20, 1975 - U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin meets with President Thieu and pressures him to resign given the gravity of the situation and the unlikelihood that Thieu could ever negotiate with the Communists.

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

April 22, 1975 - Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.

April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war that is finished as far as America is concerned."

April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.

April 28, 1975 - 'Neutralist' General Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His appeal is ignored.

April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the compound.

Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into the sea becomes an enduring image of the war's end.

April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Tell me when you find one.

Go to the history section of bookstores; you will find tons of historian authors there.


Not to mention that I am working towards my MA in U.S. History.
So you can feel relieved; there really are historians out there.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Bull****, Che

What, they didn't leave someone alive, someone who spoke on ABC News?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It seems the Marines made a mistake. They left someone alive. A twelve year old girl.

There is a girl who says she was in the first house entered by the Marines. She says she was hiding under the bed when the Marines killed everyone else.

[GePap]

From what is obviously a deeply biased leftist source, Parameters, the US Army War College Quarterly [bunch of commies in the War College!]

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99winter/pribbeno.htm

some excerpts:

On 4 March 1975, the Communist People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) launched the final campaign of its 30-year war with an attack on South Vietnamese positions in the Mang Yang Pass in the Central Highlands. The PAVN offensive, which ended in total victory less than two months later, was unlike any other in the war's long history. The difference? For the first time, PAVN's campaign strategy was not based primarily on the demonstrated willingness of its troops to die in greater numbers than those of its opponents. Moreover, it paid only lip service to the old dogma of a popular uprising. The PAVN campaign relied instead on deception, diversion, surprise, an indirect approach, and alternate objectives--in short, a highly cerebral strategy. PAVN finally mounted a campaign worthy of the modern, professional army the Vietnamese communist leadership worked so long to build.

Many historians maintain that given the massive reductions in US military aid to South Vietnam after 1973, any major communist offensive was bound to succeed. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) which confronted PAVN in early 1975, however, was no paper tiger.[1] While ARVN suffered from serious morale and logistics problems, and much of its leadership was abysmal, ARVN's soldiers were hardened veterans, and South Vietnam still maintained vast stockpiles of ammunition and equipment (as demonstrated by the massive quantities of war materiel captured by the North Vietnamese when the war ended). The final collapse of the South Vietnamese army may well have been inevitable, but the end would have been much bloodier and much longer in coming had the communists chosen a more direct, conventional plan of attack. In fact, the most damaging blow of the entire communist campaign may have been the crushing psychological blow their skillful and unexpected strategy dealt to the mind of ARVN's commander-in-chief.

On 9 March the PAVN 10th Division, with two infantry regiments (the 28th and 66th) and supported by only two 105mm howitzers with 50 rounds of ammunition, attacked and overran Duc Lap and all its outlying defensive positions within 24 hours. ARVN losses at Duc Lap totaled three battalions, including 14 artillery pieces and 20 armored vehicles.[49] After consolidating its victory, the 10th marched north toward Ban Me Thuot.

During the early morning hours of 10 March, 12 PAVN regiments launched a massive surprise attack on Ban Me Thuot. The 198th Sapper Regiment and two regular infantry battalions which had secretly infiltrated into the city struck Ban Me Thuot's two airports, the Mai Hac De supply depot, and the 23d Division headquarters. Five infantry regiments (three from the 316th Division, the 10th Division's 24th Regiment, and the battle-scarred veterans of the 325th Division's 95B Regiment) rolled into the city from three directions, led by 64 tanks and armored personnel carriers of the 273d Armored Regiment and under a curtain of fire laid down by the 78 heavy guns of the 40th and 675th Artillery Regiments.[50] The 232d and 234th Antiaircraft Regiments accompanied the attack columns, putting up an umbrella of antiaircraft fire so intense that South Vietnamese air force bombing attacks were largely ineffective and did almost as much damage to friendly forces as to their PAVN targets.[51] After 32 hours of combat, PAVN forces overran the 23d Division headquarters complex and captured the division's deputy commander.[52] General Dung informed Hanoi that his forces had captured 12 artillery pieces and 100 tons of artillery ammunition in Ban Me Thuot, assuring the worried General Staff that the offensive could proceed unhindered by ammunition concerns.[53] The North Vietnamese leadership immediately recognized the significance of their victory. During a Politburo meeting on 11 March, Le Duan broached the possibility that the strategic opportunity, the time to launch the final general offensive, might be imminent.[54] Victory in war goes to the side prepared to seize it. The North Vietnamese were prepared.

The drum roll of attacks, first seemingly directed at Pleiku, then Saigon and Hue, and now, unexpectedly, the assault on Ban Me Thuot, were psychological blows that stunned South Vietnam's leaders. Confused, desperate, and in what must have been a virtual state of shock, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu made two momentous decisions on 10 and 11 March that sealed the fate of South Vietnam. Thieu still had not guessed that Ban Me Thuot was PAVN's main target. He was convinced, however, that he was facing an all-out offensive and that PAVN's ultimate target was Saigon. Thieu's first move was to order the immediate recall of the ARVN Airborne Division, the cornerstone of the defense of I Corps, to shore up Saigon's defenses.[55] As ARVN commanders tried to withdraw units and redeploy to fill the gap left by the Airborne's pull-out, the defenses of I Corps began to teeter like a house of cards. Second, as the North Vietnamese knew he would, Thieu ordered an immediate counterattack to retake Ban Me Thuot "at all costs."[56] With the road to Ban Me Thuot cut, ARVN II Corps Commander General Pham Van Phu was forced to send the two remaining regiments of his 23d Division into battle by helicopter, dropping five battalions on a landing zone east of Ban Me Thuot during the period 12-14 March with no armor and only limited artillery support. The regiments landed in the middle of a planned PAVN "killing zone." The 10th Division, newly arrived from Duc Lap and with powerful armored and artillery support, lay in wait. In four days of blitzkrieg-like attacks the 10th rolled over and destroyed what was left of the 23d Division and the 21st ARVN Ranger Group.[57] Meanwhile, the last remnants of ARVN's once-powerful army in the Highlands (19 ranger battalions, one infantry battalion, three armored squadrons, and six artillery battalions), their supply lines cut and with no prospect of resupply or rescue, were doomed.[58] Thieu's 14 March order to withdraw these forces from Pleiku down the unused and almost impassable Provincial Route 7B to the coast was an act of desperation aimed at saving what was left of his forces in the Highlands. The order was stupid, its execution abysmal, but, in context, it was understandable.

As General Dung's forces completed their destruction of the ARVN column withdrawing from Pleiku, General Giap ordered his forces around Hue to bypass the ARVN mountain defense line which had thrown back PAVN's initial attacks. Giap ordered PAVN 2d Corps to send its 324th and 325th Divisions to strike directly into the coastal lowlands, cut Route 1, ARVN's main line of withdrawal, and destroy retreating ARVN forces before they could regroup and consolidate.[59] Caught in the open and on the move, cut off and isolated, the retreating ARVN units were swept with panic. By 29 March, Hue, Da Nang, and all of ARVN I Corps were in communist hands.

So Ned, ARVN ran out of ammunition due to Dems. in Congress? Really? Care to tell this War College guy how his research was wrong, cause obviouly you know something he, hardly a man to know, right?, does not.

[MrFun]

The War College is full of people who hate their own country; OBVIOUSLY.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by MrFun
Not to mention that I am working towards my MA in U.S. History.

Considering how little actual history your country has, is that just one of those weekend filler courses?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap

So Ned, ARVN ran out of ammunition due to Dems. in Congress? Really? Care to tell this War College guy how his research was wrong, cause obviouly you know something he, hardly a man to know, right?, does not.

No, ARVN ran out of confidence because they were cut off by the Dems. Thieu quit listening to the advice of his American advisors (who advised against every mistake he made at that crucial time) because he no longer trusted that the U.S. wanted the South to endure. If you listened to the crap coming out of congress at that time you wouldn't be surprised by this either. Ford was in a very weak political decision due to Watergate and his own unelected ascension to power, and the whipping his own party received in the 1974 elections and the replacement of numerous moderate Republicans with radical Democrats (like Pat Schroeder). Jimmy Carter would soon be undermined by these same forces himself.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


Considering how little actual history your country has, is that just one of those weekend filler courses?

I'm suppose to take taunts from an extremist-loon like you seriously?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Taunting with panash and subtlety

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sikander

No, ARVN ran out of confidence because they were cut off by the Dems. Thieu quit listening to the advice of his American advisors (who advised against every mistake he made at that crucial time) because he no longer trusted that the U.S. wanted the South to endure.

So it was all the fault of the United States, not the fault of the South Vietnamese leaders. The U.S. is all to blame, eh.

Why do you hate the U.S. so much?

Seriously though, the South had all the supplies they needed to fight on their own, but they were not willing to fight. They wanted the Americans to fight their war while they looted as much as they could.

Given all that they had received from the States and had on hand to fight, they could have fought, but ran away instead.

South Vietnam collapse because of its leaders, not the United States.

[Colon™]

Possible evidence of another massacre... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm

[Imran Siddiqui]

Damn... looks like they can't pull the "these were just bad people" excuse. Seems like this is more widespread that some previously thought.

[MrFun]

Those who are responsible for these deliberate massacres need to be brought to serious justice.

I think all of this is disgusting and outrageous if these were deliberate instances of killing unarmed women and children.

[chequita guevara]

I expect that we may find, that as in Vietnam, the number of massacres committed by our side are considerably greater than a "few bad apples."