The CIA was able to keep their prisons secret for decades....

[Vesayen]

Given the chance i'd drop Rumsfeld from 20,000 feet into any EU country and if he (somehow) survives the fall, gladly watch on T.V. as any of a dozen different EU courts puts him on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Um no... it's because we aren't horrible creatures who are unworthy of wearing the label "human beings". It's because we are against being devoid of any morals and decency. If they do it, then they are horrible excuses for humans, that doesn't mean we get the ability to be similar horrible excuses.

Basically, why? Why should we be obliged to show we are more moral then them? It may be NICE to do, but we don’t need to sign a treaty saying it…. But it for some reason enough people like you make up the electorate and it is the will of the people to be “nice” and we want to take that stance, put it before congress and sign it into law in our legal system so it is actually enforced and not some sham to be ignored.

I am skeptical of any treaty which is not self-executing because if it is not it WILL be ignored.

What exactly is good about the United States if we won't even stand for the values that we were created with? Because they 'stand up' for us? And if they disregard American values, who says they'll stand up for your ass?

We don’t need to stand up for our “values” or justify them to anyone but Americans.

Because if they are "bad guys", it is ok to debase ourselves as human beings.

Notice I’m not the one doing the torturing heh. Okay? Maybe, maybe not. Surely it is less bad then torturing the innocent as we did in our prisons in Iraq however?

I am not sure if I can stand up for the CIAs actions as a “good thing” but it is orders of magnitude better then what we did in Iraq and Cuba.

Is it also ok to detain them indefinately without trial because they are 'bad'? Would you like to be treated that way? Because I sure as Hell consider you to be a "bad guy".

Detaining anyone indefinitely is stupid. Either release them when the war is over per the Geneva convention(see bottom), put them on trial or let them go. Indefinite detentions are insane.

No I wouldn’t want to be treated that way but I also sure as hell should not expect not to be by basically any country America might ever fight. I know I won’t get the highest standard of treatment the U.S. might ever uphold itself to.


Obviously if I do not agree with "you"(several posters) then I am a dirty republican and one of the brain washed masses supporting our Furor. That is not the case at all, on the one hand I (really, really, really) hate the Republicans and on the other well... read my posts for the other hand on the distinctions heh.




(bottom seen) I said treaties which are not self executing are a waste of time and I also said treaties in which we can not expect reciprocal treatment are a waste of time. The Geneva convention has, more then most other military treaties been observed in the past and even though there have been repeated, gross violations by most countries of it in the past, it is still, respectable. It is worth following. Our conduct in Iraq and Cuba is a blatant violation of this and “enemy combatants” is a term which is a gross breach of the Geneva convention.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why should we be obliged to show we are more moral then them?

Because those are our values. Those that we, as a People, have shown to be most dear to us. What's the point in this country if the values of human rights, which are at the core of the US's existance (the Declartion of Independance, while not legally important, is central to the US's values and morality), are wiped away because "they aren't one of us".

We don’t need to stand up for our “values” or justify them to anyone but Americans.

And if one of those central values is that ALL human beings (not just Americans) have human rights?

[Vesayen]

Because those are our values. Those that we, as a People, have shown to be most dear to us. What's the point in this country if the values of human rights, which are at the core of the US's existance (the Declartion of Independance, while not legally important, is central to the US's values and morality), are wiped away because "they aren't one of us".

If it is truly the will of the people that the above be the way the U.S. does buisness, then congress should sign it into law. Treaties simply do not hold the same legal status in America, or hold the same level of respect that they do in other countries.

And if one of those central values is that ALL human beings (not just Americans) have human rights?

Up to the electorate if they want that in our law or not. If they want it, great, thats is our democracy at work-get it through congress and I sure as hell will support a total ban on torture.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Vesayen


If it is truly the will of the people that the above be the way the U.S. does buisness, then congress should sign it into law. Treaties simply do not hold the same legal status in America, or hold the same level of respect that they do in other countries.

The will of the people ??? What the heck are you talking about ??? What is the percentage participation in typical US elections ? And that in a two party system where other opnions doesn't have a chance to be heard. Your fantasies about how much the people has to say in US belongs to the fantasy genre.

[Vesayen]

That is a whole other can of worms heh. Ideally the will of the people, as represented through their representatives in congress. Start a thread on that, i'll gladly throw in a hell of alot more then 2 cents after I get back from Israel. If the U.S. goverment does not reflect the will of the people then we have even less reason to sign any treaties.

[DRoseDARs]

Only true way to protect USAmerica is to mass-murder the conservatives before they get us all killed with their reckless shenanigans. Nevermind it's illegal and violates both federal and international law, we're defending USAmerica.

[Vesayen]

They are American citizens, we give our own preferential treatment, for example we give them the protections spelled out in law. If you think we could amend the constitution to execute the GOP publicly.... i'm start lobbying my state legislature immediatly heh.

[MRT144]

hope vesayen gets blown up in israel just so we wont have to worry about the peril our nation is in

[BlackCat]

So what if they are ? Killing them seems to be for the better of US so why not start ?

[Imran Siddiqui]

If it is truly the will of the people that the above be the way the U.S. does buisness, then congress should sign it into law. Treaties simply do not hold the same legal status in America, or hold the same level of respect that they do in other countries.

Article VI

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land

[BlackCat]

Are we witnessing the birth of yet another Ned ?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Are we witnessing the birth of yet another Ned ?

your wrong heh.... their are *HUGE* differences between ned and vesayan....

[MRT144]

like age and location. after that it doesnt matter

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Vesayen

Just because something is declared a "human right" does not give the concept ANY moral authority or justification, they have to stand on their own merits.

So the Holocaust was okay!

[BlackCat]

Actually I'm a little sorry for that statement - Ned may be to a side, but he rareley makes stupid mistakes such as that - he is usually more problematic to debunk.

Nah, I know of course that a lot of pinkie leftist loonies here kneejerk reject him (Ned), but who cares about their opinions