The CIA was able to keep their prisons secret for decades....

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

"Human right" as a term has been so maligned that it is no longer useful

I'd imagine any concept of 'human right' should consider torture to be against that. As well as detainment without the possibility of trial. But those must be commie values... damn founders of the US, commies every one of them

[q=MRT144]so because the word holds no value the concept should be disregarded. i hope i get to punch you in the face one day.[/q]

There may be a line for that.

I'm not sure if a ban on torture is a "right" worth respecting. If we can kill an enemy of the U.S., and we do, why not torture? I am uncertain on the subject, to the degree I can not strongly say "a ban on torture should be a respected human right"

Originally posted by MRT144
so because the word holds no value the concept should be disregarded. i hope i get to punch you in the face one day.

No. However specify the right your referring to. "Human right" is a term which no longer has any meaning. Be more specific.

[MRT144]

the right not to be anally raped because youre a prisoner of war, enemy combatant, whatever.

theres a good starting point

[MRT144]

and really any further conversation ceases to be useful here simply because you don't believe in rights except for your own lily white american cornfed ass.

[Provost Harrison]

Hey Vesayen, why not just kill anyone where it is expedient. Who needs a legal system?

[MRT144]

words not worth it
clap clap clapclapclap

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not sure if a ban on torture is a "right" worth respecting. If we can kill an enemy of the U.S., and we do, why not torture?

I hope I get to punch you in the face one day.

People who don't know the difference between killing people in battle, where both sides are trying to kill the other side, and capturing an enemy and trying to make him suffer, especially while he has no chance to fight back or protect himself, is utterly despicable.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I'm not sure if a ban on torture is a "right" worth respecting.

I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ned
No, Che. It's not about exposing "illegal" activities. It's about exposing activities that help defend America.

That just happen to be illegal under Federal law and violate numerous treaties.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I'm not sure if a ban on torture is a "right" worth respecting. If we can kill an enemy of the U.S., and we do, why not torture?

I hope I get to punch you in the face one day.

I think that we need to organise this a bit - I mean we probably has to line up an make sure that he get proper medical treatment at each 15-20 punch to his head.

I mean, I'm not worried about brain damage - thats impossible, but vision etc. should be taken care of.

[Gangerolf]

The CIA has a secret prison in my basement. They pay good $$$.
Better than the Polish guest workers I had there last year anyway.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by MRT144
the right not to be anally raped because youre a prisoner of war, enemy combatant, whatever.

theres a good starting point

Perhaps. There is no point at all in signing or abiding by *ANY* "human rights" treaty if you can not be reasonably sure your opposition will as well. The strongest, really the ONLY reason to sign them, is that. How you treat people inside your own country is a matter left to your own laws, treaties only reflect conduct between countries and while we may sign treaties which oblige us to for example, not torture, there may be little reason to not torture if our guys are tortured.

Originally posted by MRT144
and really any further conversation ceases to be useful here simply because you don't believe in rights except for your own lily white american cornfed ass.

I believe the world is a hostile, barbaric place(still) and the only people who have my interests at heart, are me. Likewise the only people who (sometimes) have my countries interest at heart, are my country.

I believe it is morally horrific to EVER torture someone.
I believe murder is immoral and wrong.
I believe theft is wrong.
I believe lying is inherently wrong.
I believe cheating is inherently wrong.
I believe intentionally harming another human being without justifiable cause, is inherently wrong.

However what my own moral beliefs are, do not necessarily, nr should they necessarily reflect government policy. My moral views have very little say in government, as much as I don’t want some Christian fundamentalists to have their moral views to be a source of government.

Originally posted by MRT144
you don't believe in rights except for your own lily white american cornfed ass.

I believe human rights treaties are (mostly) sham and utterly unimportant in a world where only the countries which TRY to uphold human rights treaties and do MOST of the time, are the only ones who are ever slandered, while the countries who respect no “human rights” continually get a pass.

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Hey Vesayen, why not just kill anyone where it is expedient. Who needs a legal system?

See above statements.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I'm not sure if a ban on torture is a "right" worth respecting. If we can kill an enemy of the U.S., and we do, why not torture?

I hope I get to punch you in the face one day.

People who don't know the difference between killing people in battle, where both sides are trying to kill the other side, and capturing an enemy and trying to make him suffer, especially while he has no chance to fight back or protect himself, is utterly despicable.

Making someone suffer for the hell of it is inherently wrong, immoral, EVIL. Without any military background I can say(and have a strong feeling I am right) that we have not gotten ANY useful or productive results out of the crap we have been doing. Why in GODS name we have done the crap we have done in Iraq or in Cuba when we have NO results is beyond me.....

HOWEVER precisely *WHAT* we have done and to *WHO* we have done it and what the *RESULT* has been in the secret CIA prisons for decades, is another thing all together.

I doubt in those prisons we have military contractors or just (some) stupid U.S. troop forcing prisoners into naked piles because they are sociopaths. We have horrendously detained a number of innocent people for years and possibly tortured them, this is not acceptable.

I once again am guessing(no proof either way) that most of the guys who have inhabited the cia "facilities" are really "the bad guys".


I am going to Israel for 9 days in.... about 3 hours, I may not have time for a follow up post, if not i'll catch up when I get back to the states.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There is no point at all in signing or abiding by *ANY* "human rights" treaty if you can not be reasonably sure your opposition will as well. The strongest, really the ONLY reason to sign them, is that.

Um no... it's because we aren't horrible creatures who are unworthy of wearing the label "human beings". It's because we are against being devoid of any morals and decency. If they do it, then they are horrible excuses for humans, that doesn't mean we get the ability to be similar horrible excuses.

What exactly is good about the United States if we won't even stand for the values that we were created with? Because they 'stand up' for us? And if they disregard American values, who says they'll stand up for your ass?

I once again am guessing(no proof either way) that most of the guys who have inhabited the cia "facilities" are really "the bad guys".

Because if they are "bad guys", it is ok to debase ourselves as human beings.

Is it also ok to detain them indefinately without trial because they are 'bad'? Would you like to be treated that way? Because I sure as Hell consider you to be a "bad guy".

[MRT144]

ves = rumsfeld
we hold ourselves to a higher stand cause were the goddamn united states of america. who gives a **** if we get slandered by other countries. we are accountable to ourselves and you can live with the sick **** we do in the name of defense. get out of my goddamn country because you truly dont respect anything that we have here.

[Barnabas]

whats up with all the punching in the face comments?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Vesayen
I once again am guessing(no proof either way) that most of the guys who have inhabited the cia "facilities" are really "the bad guys".

(Setting aside the torture part and focusing on the detention without trial part,) if an agency is fallible, then it should not be allowed to bypass due process. The CIA is fallible, therefore it should not be allowed to bypass due process.