Dallas Mega March draws thousands

[Ramo]

Believe me, there are plenty of employers that pay them cash under the table, especially people who are, shall we say, "sympathetic" to their "cause".

But not all of them by any means.

The point is that they don't get social security. On the whole, they're contributing to the rest of our retirements and not getting anything in return. In addition to paying property, sales, and excise taxes. The idea that they're paying few of the costs for the benefits that they're recieving is horse****.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I don't really know why people seem to focus on the immigrants themselves and not on those that employ them. Actually enforcing and strengthening the laws against employing illegals would do alot more to solve the problem.

Absolutely. I'd love to see a bill that fast tracks illegals for citizenship once they pay a fine and meet other requirements, but that also requires them to identify all their former employers, who would then be assessed fines and back taxes.

[David Floyd]

[quote]The Bill that was passed by the House makes being an illegal immigrant a felony, and makes providing assistance to an illegal immigrant a felony. That's what they're protesting.]/quote]

They're protesting a bill that makes it a crime to provide assistance to other criminals. So?

And they certainly weren't out in the streets demonstrating in favor of any sort of reasonable bill to provide a path to legal status, either.

No mass demonstrations by Hispanics, at least in Austin, for years and years over bills proposing a legal path to immigration (at least not one that has a chance of passing). A bill that provides stiffer penalties for breaking the law and for helping those that do, and they come out in droves. What a ****ed up country we live in.

But not all of them by any means.

I don't recall claiming that. Many do, though, fit that category, and I know people who have paid illegal immigrants under the table.

The point is that they don't get social security.

No, they get police protection, fire and health services, the ability to live in a nation with virtually no poverty, at least as they would view poverty, and, when the Democrats need an election win, the right to vote.

OK, that last part was a joke, but not too far off

On the whole, they're contributing to the rest of our retirements and not getting anything in return. In addition to paying property, sales, and excise taxes. The idea that they're paying few of the costs for the benefits that they're recieving is horse****.

I'm not sure how many illegal immigrants you think are paying property taxes, but I'm guessing not that many. As for excise and sales taxes, that's certainly true. But by definition none of them are paying income taxes, and many of them aren't even paying payroll taxes. It isn't horse**** to say that I have to pay considerably more than they do, and homeowners pay considerably more than that. It's a fact.

[David Floyd]

And here's an excerpt from the article. It's about a week old, so it may very well be out of date, but as far as I know the following is accurate:

Full Senate debate over what to do about the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants now in the country and the 500,000 who arrive each year began Tuesday and wasn't expected to conclude for weeks.

The Senate Judiciary Committee on Monday voted to strip from proposed legislation criminal penalties for residents found to be in the United States illegally.

A bill debated Wednesday would require tighter enforcement at the borders and allow all illegal immigrants now in the country to legalize their status if they pay a fine, submit to background checks, remain employed, pay taxes, learn English and study U.S. civics. After about 11 years, another fee and more background checks, they could gain permanent residence and, ultimately, citizenship.

Roughly 400,000 temporary visas, based on market conditions, would be granted to new arrivals each year. These visa-holders could apply for permanent residence.

[David Floyd]

Anyway, I'm going to bed.....

[Ramo]

Dude, the House Bill doesn't have a pathway to a legal status. It's enforcement only. Same thing with the Frist Bill. I have no idea where you're getting your information, but the folks who you call "ignorant" are a hell of a lot better informed than you are.

They're protesting a bill that makes it a crime to provide assistance to other criminals. So?

It's an insult to human deceny. Not to mention libertarian ideals, but I suppose they can be ignored when inconvenient.

I'm not sure how many illegal immigrants you think are paying property taxes, but I'm guessing not that many.

Pretty much all of them. It's part of their rent.

[Ramo]

The Senate Judiciary Committee on Monday voted to strip from proposed legislation criminal penalties for residents found to be in the United States illegally.

A bill debated Wednesday would require tighter enforcement at the borders and allow all illegal immigrants now in the country to legalize their status if they pay a fine, submit to background checks, remain employed, pay taxes, learn English and study U.S. civics. After about 11 years, another fee and more background checks, they could gain permanent residence and, ultimately, citizenship.

I already went over this. This McCain-Kennedy Bill that got through Committee didn't pass the full Senate. Neither did a later compromise that would be somewhat less draconian than the House Bill.

What the protestors are doing is supporting the McCain-Kennedy Bill and opposing the House Bill.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ramo
It's an insult to human deceny. Not to mention libertarian ideals, but I suppose they can be ignored when inconvenient.

Have you noticed that Floyd seems a lot less libertarian after his self-imposed hiaitus?

[Straybow]

They can march but they can't vote. So let them march.

[DRoseDARs]

*Sigh* This has taken over an hour to write and proofread (as much as I care to, I'm not receiving college credit for it ), so I might as well post it...

For the record, here's my position and thoughts on this whole matter:

1) English should legally be the official language of the United States. Secondary languages should not be prohibited nor discouraged. Documents can be printed in alternate language upon request (advocacy groups will likely foster this on behalf of non-English speakers, which is fine as it promotes other forms of aid otherwise not available). Public education should be in English, but ESL classes should continue to be offered and supported. Naturalization should also require workable English mastery, if not fluency (really, how many native speakers don't screw up their own language every once in a while?).

2) The border with Mexico should be physically built-up and made damn near impossible to cross without proper authorization (re: passports and visas like it pretty much always has been) at the proper crossings. A "fence" should be constructed perhaps a mile from the border on our side along the uninhabited portions, heavily patrolled, and sensors throughout. Clean water depots and unmanned first aid stations should be provided at regular intervals in the one mile buffer zone between the "fence" and the legal border. Illegal crossings in the deserts are nasty business, so some measure of mercy should be provided since the Mexican government has demonstrated that it doesn't give a sh*t. Since they are on the US side of the border but haven't crossed the "fence" anyone caught in the one mile buffer zone shall be deported same as always, including families with children. Those few that make it to the other side of the "fence" and are caught there might be granted some leniency since they made it across what should be for all intents and purposes and uncrossable barrier. Others that are caught well away from the border in sweeps for illegals shall be sent right back to their country of origin (if they're unwilling to provide that information, southern Mexico then) unless there are children involved (see #3 next).

3) The visa system should be expanded (allow more legal worker visas) as well as allowing more to seek citizenship if they so choose. As far as children and having them in the US, grant the children born here their citizenship as per the Constitution and grant some leniency to the parents (parole and/or fines but not jail time since someone needs to care for the child and that really shouldn't be the state foster care system). If the parents haven't acheived legal citizenship (I would add visas and passports here, but then this system of leniency would quickly and widely be abused; citizenship is harder to fake re:#4) by the time the child is of age (generally considered 18), deport the parents and forbid them any future entry (they broke the law to begin with and couldn't be arsed to rectify the situation satisfactorily in 18 years of the child's life) while the child in question (now old enough to be on their own) can stay if they choose; the child doesn't lose their citizenship unless they renounce it like any other legal citizen. There's the possibility of parents AND their children sneaking into the country and claiming the child was born here. Having not given birth in a normal hospital and thus not having any legal documents proving the child's citizenship, it's a stickier question than I know how to answer. Still, in most cases a child has no control over their parents bringing the child across the border illegally, so punishing them for their parents' crime or seperating the child from their parents is just wrong.

4) ID cards. Everyone seems to poo-poo them and I don't really understand why. No one loses sleep over driver's licenses or SS cards. Hell, bank and credit cards cause more consternation than government-issued identification. One way I can think of of perhaps alaying fears is having a body like the ACLU or another civil/privacy rights watchdog managing the program. Have a redundant non-elected, non-appointed vetting system to ensure non-partisanship and to keep out elements that would seek to abuse the ID system and the information contained therein.

5) Employers that knowingly hire illegals and are caught doing so should be fined out of existence: All assets confiscated, jail for the employers, and deportation for the workers (unless they have children re:#3); make the risks of doing business this way unbearable. However, I would make an exception for any business that provides for its illegals working conditions meeting or exceeding the highest standards required by law in any of the 50 states (meaning beyond federal requirements or even that particular state's laws). Example: If a business in Texas has illegals and pays them better than the $7.65 state minimum wage of Connecticutt (starting in '07; just assume we're in 2007 and not 2006 for this example) as opposed to the $5.15 federal or Texas state minimum wage, and meets other such labor laws in a similar manner, then the fines against the business should be lower (though the company should be closely monitored from then on out) and the illegals should be put on parole (allowed to continue working). This will have a discouraging effect on businesses hiring illegals instead of legals: If you can't afford doing business legally or treating your illegal workers as more than just slaves, then you won't be doing business period.



Does all this sound like a rightwingish position coming from the mouth of a dyed-in-the-wool liberal? Perhaps, but I feel it's more a stern, compassionate and understanding view of illegal immigration. These are our fellow Humans we're talking about. Not cattle, not vermin, and not hardened criminals. These are simply people seeking to earn money (even citizenship or at least permanent habitation in some cases) to send home to their families living in poorer economic conditions. It should be made damned difficult for them to get here illegally in the first place, but once they're here, show a little compassion and mercy. If this is supposedly a "Christian" nation then we need to do unto others as we would have done unto ourselves or else that which we do unto the least of us we do unto Jesus and that would make Him cry. Since the correct view is that we are a secular civil government, then the high standard we claim in our freedom should be applied to all persons within our borders, regardless of their legal status. Either way, it is wrong that these people should suffer so much within our borders and be treated worse than incarcerated prisoners.



Edit: *Snicker* - "assports"

[Rufus T. Firefly]

#1 - Disagree. The US is a work in progress; I don't see any reason to mandate a national language. Let it be up to various government units whether thay want to use Spanish as well as English.

#2 - Disagree. Building our own Berlin Wall will not solve much, but it will be a blow to our national character.

#3 & 4 - agree.

#5 - agree with punishing employers, but don't see the logic in punishing the employee of a bad employer (with deportation) but rewarding teh employees of a good employer (with parole).

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
#1 - Disagree. The US is a work in progress; I don't see any reason to mandate a national language. Let it be up to various government units whether thay want to use Spanish as well as English.

I'll differ with you in saying that federally the official language should be English, while state and local governments can choose to recognize 2nd official languages. Maybe down the line, once Spanish is more prevelant through out the US instead of just a few border states then it too can become officially recognized. Again, no language is to be banned, just no government documents printed in other languages unless requested and again advocacy groups will fill that role with gusto.

#2 - Disagree. Building our own Berlin Wall will not solve much, but it will be a blow to our national character.

I don't think we can blow our image much worse, if you ignore the fact that Iran may be in Bush's nuclear bunker-busting sights...

And I'm also conerned about terrorism and smuggling across the border. Coupled with port security (instead of the current lip-service approach), we'd be better able to protect ourselves from the rage we've fostered in the world, rage we'd be hard-pressed to cool over the coming years even if we kick the Republican-majority out of office for years to come.

#3 & 4 - agree.

#5 - agree with punishing employers, but don't see the logic in punishing the employee of a bad employer (with deportation) but rewarding teh employees of a good employer (with parole).

Think of it as a compromise to those that would deport regardless. Deporting illegals working for sh*ty employers would be no different than what we already do. Allowing businesses that provide humane work conditions for their workers to continue operating might prevent or at least mitigate the damage done to the economy that would otherwise occur in shutting them done outright. This could be tied into an expanded visa system in that these companies, once caught, would cooperate with the system to legalize their workers and to operate within the system for future hirings. Perhaps, instead of deporting the illegals of sh*ty employers having been shutdown, they could instead be brought over to the compliant companies.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Between Slowwhand and Floyd I think Texas holds the lead in (CPC) Crackers per Capita

While you put England over the top for pinheads.

[SlowwHand]

#1 - Disagree. The US is a work in progress; I don't see any reason to mandate a national language. Let it be up to various government units whether thay want to use Spanish as well as English.

Bull****. Unless you're suggestng state's rights, which I don't think you want to do.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


While you put England over the top for pinheads.

I noticed you didn't really disagree with me

Well done

Now give back Texas to the Mexicans you illegal immigrant