Personal Spiritual Problems

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by beingofone

Only if you dicount the fact that substantial portions of the Roman Empire had groups of Christians scattered throughout by the end of the first century.

Think about what it would take to pull that off. Also books were extreemly expensive and involved not just one person as today but usually several if not dozens to cooperate.

We are talking the biggest hoax in the history of mankind under the nose of the efficient Romans.

It could have taken probably much less work than you think.
Jesus himself was active in only a small area in a province, far far away from rome and, after all, Jesus was very reluctant to do anything for non jews but rather concentrated his missionary efforts (and miracles) on jews.
So we can assume that all of the missionary work outside of this area was done only after the death of Jesus and most probably only by a small group of people (i.e. those of the apostles who did all of the voyages to convert people within other countries to the christian faith [and, speaking of rome, only the far fewer number of apostles who actually cared to also convert non jews to the christian faith])
All was needed is, that these few people believed in the resurrection of Jesus. They would do the convertion of the first people in a new country (bringing with them also the faith in the resurrection of Jesus) and then these converts would carry on converting other people, always also mentioning the faith in the resurrection of jesus.

It wouldn´t even matter if not all of the apostles believed in his resurrection, as only those apostles (like John and Peter) who did their missionary work outside of galilea needed to believe in it.

If Apostles (or other disciples) who didn´t do much missionary work didn´t believe in the ressurrection, it wouldn´t matter much, as it was more important which faith gained supremacy among the christian parishs (and for this it was more important how many people believed in it and not if their faith was true).

(not taking into account the explanatiion that it could possibly be that Jesus wasn´t dead as he was taken from the cross [but just unconscious with very shallow breath] so that, when he awoke in his tomb, all of the people [and Jesus himself] believed that he was resurrected from the death [after all in Mark 15:44 Pilatus was surprised to hear that Jesus was already dead, so it seems to be that it normally took longer for people on the cross to die])

[Pekka]

beingofone, again, thanks for the message. It's in the high concept level that I like.

Now what oyu say is true about forgiving, it IS freedom. When you let go of the negative attachments in yourself, you are free of it and not a prisoner. Of course I can forgive the organized religion and how it is structured, I mean, I'm not blaming those people personally. It's just the way it goes you know.. there's no single person or face I can point and say 'it's your fault'. I don't even need to blame anyone whne it comes to this, I don't need a face, name or an address.

I just see it as something that happened, the way it goes. All I can do is try to parallel myself with it, what is my position in this, how do I fit in this system and how do I percieve it versus how others percieve it and try to find some kind of reality of it in between.

I don't think a religion should have an agenda to spread. I think religion shouldn't have structures of power. I don't think we as a society should recognize the power of those who are in power position in religion X.

I see religion as too penetrating thing in our lives, hey I'm a Christian, it's not like I have to watch someone come and sell their faith to me. But.. it's just.. I like my own space. I view religion as something VERY personal. Most of the times, in IRL, I don't like to talk about it. This might seem weird to you. It might be partially cultural thing. We just dont' like to talk about our business with other people we don't know.

So like I pointed out in the beginning, one of the agendas of Christianity is something I disagree with, and it's something that might be what Jesus wanted and said, it's something I can not challenge other people who believe it's what we should do (Spread the word), because it's a personal opinion and not based on the religion. I just don't think we should spread the word. We should make it available but we should remain non-intrusive (aka respectful). This is a big issue with me. If someone, a person comes bumping into me and says he wants to know about Jesus and be saved, hey, I'll tell what I have learned with my own bias. But I would never go to them and start talking about it, that's intrusive IMO, and ultimately that leads to some kind of... hunting of the souls, you know..

Christianity is set on the wrong premise IMO. The mindset is, let's keep count on the heads we have hear and keep them on leash, so that these souls are saved or what ever. And then the next thing we do is let's count the heads who AREN'T with us, and do something about it. You know, that's very restrictive kind of way to.. it restricts all kinds of other ways to go about this, because it's the premise of it all, at least in our mindsets. I disagree with it. If Jesus said it, I still disagree with it. You know, I'm sorry but I do.

I'm against ALL forced or influenced revalations or how you might call them. It's personal. To me it is. I understand there are lots of people who disagree with this and they aren't wrong, we're all right and wrong about this. But religion to me is personal, I don't like to waive my flags about it, I want to be who I am and I do not identify myself through the religion. It's part of me, but I define myself via other ways, it's just one attribute.

I did not mean anything negative about 'get a life'. Clearly people who are religious and like to attend churches and all that stuff, it makes them happy, that's their life. I respect that. I just hope everyone else could respect my ways too, unconditionally. I don't like being there. It's not that I'm anti-Christian. I just don't like it. I'd have to fake and make belief to enjoy the rituals, the speeches and what not.

by the way I like the Quinn quote.

It's quite difficult for me to express my whole.. where I come from with this. It would require hours of talking and then I'd begin to get into the point, hopefully.

It's like this. In here, men are required to do military service. Some people choose not to, and they serve in the military in tasks that require no weapons or any kind of violence things. Then some of them refuse to do tha talso, because they don't want to be part of a military machine, because even if they wouldn't kill themselves, they would still contribute to the machine by participating in it.

The comparison can be made to how I see my situation, even though I don't compare army and christianity, killing or rituals etc at all. But the situation alone.

It's kind of when you love someone enough, you leave them alone, because it's best that you do for some reason. You let them go.

[Jon Miller]

spreading the word does not mean preaching on street corners...

but be that as it may, if you have something good, wouldn't you want to share it with others?

I also don't think that God is into coercion. If He wanted, he could force us all to worship him, to be like Him. But he didn't, he allowed us to choose.

Also, people who are too pushy, turn people off and away from God. So in a way they are going against God.

Jon Miller

[Pekka]

"but be that as it may, if you have something good, wouldn't you want to share it with others?"

There are lots of people who don't care about it. It's faith, it's not something they can get a hold of like money. No, I do not like to tell others how they should go about things.

This is the people who are too pushy you talk about. It's just that what the limits of pushing is for me. Something that's not pushy for you might be pushy for me or vice versa. My limits in this is quite short. I think we should make it available for everyone who is interested and help them get started if they wish to know more, but they sohuld be initiators. That's my view, I think we save A LOT OF trouble if it was this way.

Passive.

[fed1943]

I believe religion is to try "be with" God. So,it makes no sense speak of true or untrue religion, since it is just the trial, the way. And I cannot say you the way I think better for me will be good for you. And if you say you know what God wants I will answer that I don't believe you. I believe Bible is a sacred book, but most of it is symbolic; that is not belittle, it's very important, because it's symbolic: a lesson,not a history.
And miracles,no, I don't believe: the Law of the AllMighty needs no excepctions.
Best regards,

[Pekka]

Yes.. and no I don't know what God wants . I think God wants us to use our lives to live but beyond that, I don't know.

God is a libertarian.