Gay events, lack of logic IMO. Mr.fun explain this to me.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Spec


That's false. I'm making the claim that we should all ACT alike in order to enjoy equal rights. Acting different or creating special events for people only increases the difference between us all.

Spec.

But acting differently is in of itself, not a bad thing, and therefore, not grounds on questioning the validity of equal rights for all.

[Velociryx]

Youve never actually read a bio of Walt Whitman, have you?

Nope, but I see where you're going with it and I agree.

That's why I specifically did not say "all" in my earlier post.

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Velociryx

Okay, first....stop being so defensive. ESPECIALLY around me. I'm hardly your enemy, and nothing I've said in this thread should make you think so. You want to march in a Gay Pride Parade...hey man, that's cool. I think it works against your organization's stated goals, but if you feel the need, go for it!

Second, yes, being that I am neither blind nor mentally deficient, I am aware that Hollywood is a good bit more liberal than many, if not most places, but I'm talking about way back, before there even WAS a Hollywood.

In its absense, and given your position that homosexuals are, were, and have been widely reviled, how do you explain the fact that pre-hollywood, a remarkable number of our most cherished authors, poets, painters, thinkers and dreamers were well documented (or at the very least, strongly suspected of being) homosexual? - I would imagine that if the fact of their homosexuality was as big an obstacle as you have presented it to be (in the larger public eye) that their work would have been ridiculed, but this is not what occured.

It's not a dodge, it's a fair question, and one that I gather you have not given much thought to, based on the defensive nature of your reply.

-=Vel=-

The fact that there have been artists in history long before Hollywood who have been admired by the broader population does not disprove my argument that homosexuals are denied equal rights. Rather, what you have pointed out is that there is a societal inconsistency in that at the same time that artists who are gay have been widely admired, the same society enacts bigoted, unjust laws against homosexuals.

Remember what happened in November 2004? Something like eleven states denied that gays are human by nature by enacting anti-gay laws. And yet, at the same time, a sitcom like Will & Grace for example, enjoys popular viewing.

Whoopee -- Will & Grace's popularity as a sitcom should have a much greater bearing than the fact that homosexuals are still dehumanized and discriminated against.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Youve never actually read a bio of Walt Whitman, have you?

Nope, but I see where you're going with it and I agree.

That's why I specifically did not say "all" in my earlier post.

-=Vel=-

and leonardo da vinci spent two months in jail, and was released due to influential contacts. Im wondering which artists youre thinking of?

Suggestion go with Tchaikovsky - they now say he didnt kill himself.

[Velociryx]

Mr. Fun....please take the following as just a sugesstion.

In reviewing my posts on this thread, I believe that they are in no way harsh, or biting, or rude, or bigoted, but I am not the one to judge that. That falls to you, so I would ask you to go back and review my posts here, and tell me if you think I have been cruel, or mean-spirited, or biting, or sarcastic....anything like that (aside from one "wink smiley" I don't really see much, but we'll see what you find).

Having said that, I hope you will also see the way my posts have changed with your arrival in this thread. This has occurred because I recognize that you have a unique insight into the topic at hand.

I hope you believe that my questions stem from a genuine desire to understand, rather than to belittle and dehumanize.

If you believe the above to be true, then I would point out the following:

When someone from outside your community (and by that, I mean the gay community) asks questions and expresses a desire to understand, it is oftentimes off-putting when answers are given in caustic or sarcastic tones.

While you might not care on an individual level, as a representative for your movement/group/community in this discussion, such things works against you in a real way, and serves to make it increasingly more difficult for your movement to gain traction, which, by extension, makes it more difficult to effect change.

Taken together with things such as Parades that sit at cross purposes with the greater acceptance you are attempting to achieve, it means that by your own actions, you make your own goals that much more difficult to reach.

You realize this, yes?

Peace, friend.

I'm not your enemy.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

leonardo da vinci

That name alone is sufficient.

He's a god.

If I were pagan, I would worship him....

-=Vel=-

[Spec]

Vel

I wish I could express my self in english as good as you. Well, as good as most of you, being that my first language is french and all....

I'm sure that this way, people would understnad my point instead of being so defensive all the time.

But Vel has the exact same point of view as me on this subject.

Cheers!

Spec.

[Velociryx]

Thanks Spec. And I think you do very well, *especially* in light of the fact that English isn't your native language!

-=Vel=-

[Spec]

Dont take this the wrong way, but you should be a lawyer.

Spec.

[Velociryx]

I write fiction novels....is that close enough?

-=Vel=-

[Spec]

Even better. Atleast, that way, you're not using your talent to bs anyone.

Spec.

[Velociryx]

Shoot me your e-mail and I'll send you some stuff, and as ever, no BS...



-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Vel, I welcome questions from straight people who wish to try to understand the perspective of gays today, and to understand the history of homosexuals. Maybe I am being too harsh, but some of what you said seemed to have dodged the more profound issues that I have brought up -- even if that was not your intention.

So what if artists throughout history have been admired even if some of them were gay? That does not disprove the reality that homosexuals are still discriminated against.

[Spec]

Originally posted by MrFun
So what if artists throughout history have been admired even if some of them were gay? That does not disprove the reality that homosexuals are still discriminated against.

Indeed it doesn't. But the point of this thread is that having gay olympics and parades do nothing to help your cause imo.

Can you show me otherwise?

Spec.

[Velociryx]

....That does not disprove the reality that homosexuals are still discriminated against.


No. No it does not.

And in bringing it up, I guess my indirect question is.....are there no lessons to be learned there?

I look at it kina like the underground railroad, during the days of slavery.

It wasn't put together by some mastermind with a grand plan.

Rather, it was haphazard. Piecemeal.

There was no grand design at work, and yet....

Once the FIRST person made the trip thru, others followed the example.

I guess what the question, for me, was something of a fishing expedition to see if there was a possibility of learning a few moves from the playbooks of those who "made it."

Make sense, or am I still way out in left field somewhere?

-=Vel=-