How much does the competitiveness of a college matter?

[Dr Strangelove]

Getting a degree from a high prestige school would could make a difference if you were going on to medical school, law school, MBA school, or a graduate academic track. All things considered a 3.7 average from a Ivy league school will go further towards getting a student into a medical school than the same record from an average state college. When it comes to the other career tracks you have to consider that there is an enormous degree of variability in the quality of law schools, and MBA schools. There are law schools set up in old houses from which you'll get a degree that will be almost worthless. If you want to do something in law you need to go to a law school with a good name, and they largely take people from undergraduate schools with good names. The same is true for graduate business schools. In academia how far you rise is largely going to depend on what you publish, but coming from a good undergrad school will help you get into a good grad school. You'll start the publish or perish rat race of academia with a slight edge.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Well, I don't have any scholarships at the moment, and maybe I'll be screwed financially in the future. But as far as median income for recent graduates, I know it is very high. I remember seeing stats on it, and I can't find them now, but they're high.

But for Christ's sake, how can you put a price on education? College is now going to be the best four years of my life, I'm going to learn a helluva lot, and I am going to work hard and get into a good grad school. Hopefully by the end of the process I'll be a genius.

Edit: why are my post's in red and italics? I haven't been to poly in a long time, so it is probably some feature added a while ago.

For starters, I have heard of Williams and I understand why you would want to go there. So I'm not one of the "why go to a college you've never heard of" crowd. Just so that's straight.

However, you ask an easy question: "How can you put a price on education?" (You then follow it up with an untrue assumption (that it'll be the best four years of your life), but that's beside the point.) And that answer is:

Expected median yearly earnings for your career path*2.

Therefore, if your ambition is to be a top corporate officer with an expected median yearly earnings of $120,000 (plus stock options), feel free to blow a quarter, a third of a million dollars on that trip to Uni - you'll make it up.

However, if your desire is to be a school teacher (high school English?), with median earnings of $40,000, then you should pay no more than $80,000. Looking like State School U, or Notre Dame. Or maybe the military academies.

You mention median income for graduates. Yes, but graduates in which disciplines?

[JohnT]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Maybe not right after graduation, but hopefully later. But from what I've heard, the academic community has ways of taking care of the financial woes of some of its incoming members.

You should never make financial decisions using assumptions of the goodness of unknown "others".

[JohnT]

One last thing.

"Competitiveness" measures the percentage of applicants the school rejects, which really has nothing to do with how good the school is, but how it's perceived.

Perhaps some of these schools reject a lot because (a) it helps them drive up per-student tuition fees or (b) they happen to be popular "second-fifth" choice schools for a lot of students who throw out too many applications with too little thought in what they want to accomplish.

Many of them are quality schools, but the competitiveness rating doesn't really measure quality. Just keep that in mind.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Consider this. For 4 years, the cost will be: $170,600 for tuition, room & board. Then, if you want to go to a big time grad school look at a cost of around another $100,000. That's a potential student debt of $270,600 (subtract how much you can pay and any grants).

You may want to think about going into business or attempt to be a high paying doctor, or lawyer in a big firm. Something like that to pay that off.

[Ramo]

The first thing to ask yourself is what can a pricey place like Williams offer you, that a solid state school can't? You'll get a lower faculty to student ratio at a private liberal arts college, but honestly if you need a lot of personal interaction with the prof in order to learn, there are always office hours at the state school. You may get a little more prestige in terms of grad school admissions, but the profs who look at admissions are smart enough to recognize good state schools for what they are. And with a large state school, it's more likely for there to be personal connections between professors you study under or work for, and the guys who are looking at your application (which actually does matter - a huge amount, as opposed to the pedigree of the school). As for some Skull and Bones gig that's going to help you out throughout life, that ain't happening.

I thought that my public university education has been excellent (not to say that there weren't a lot of problems), and I don't have any real regrets about going down this path. And it's fantastic not having a $100k debt.

OTOH, folks like yourself will be paying off my loans during grad school at an overpriced private school, so apply away.

[Japher]

to some it is the prestige that matters. to mr.mccloud it seems to be this case. sobeit

[Wiglaf]

k

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Rufus, it sounds like your daughter and I are in very similar situations. I want a small, high-calibre liberal arts college, Brown and Wesleyan were definitely places I really wanted to go to (Brown was too competitive, and I already had enough 'maybe schools' so I didn't apply to Wesleyan), and the schools I applied to are very similar to those two. But do you think it's worth it? If she were to go to Michigan State, I bet she could go there for free, and if she wanted a small private school, she could go to an uncompetitive one and go there for pretty cheap as well.

Well, when I finished that paragraph and checked my mail, I realized I just got into Williams, the most competitive liberal arts school in the country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM SO F$CKING EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First off, Congrats! Well done!

Now: is it worth it for my daughter to go to Wesleyan at $40k+/year instead of, say, University of Texas for $8k+/year (and less if we can fudge in-state status, which is possible)? I can only give a pretty sappy answer: She'll be happier at Wesleyan, so it's worth it. We're lucky: we've been saving money all along on the assumption that college would cost that much, and we only have one kid; if this is a luxury, it's one we can afford. And my wife and I, who have both been professors, have never thought about college as something that has to provide a monetary return on investment; the education is about who she becomes, as a person, not about what she does for a living. But that's not teh way everyone thinks, obviously, and you've got to do what's right for you.

Whatever you do, congrats again, and best of luck!

[johncmcleod]

Thanks Rufus. JohnT, I don't plan on being a high school teacher, I plan to be on the university level. That'll get me more than 40,000, and most of the professors at the very top universities went to selective and expensive undergrad colleges anyway.

Financially, it won't be quite as bad as some of you are making it out to be, I hope. First, I have one sibling, and the school he wants to go to (Loyola Marymount) offers a half-tuition scholarship to one student from each jesuit school around the country. I don't even think anyone at my school this year even went there, so his chances of getting the scholarship are good. If not, I am sure we will qualify for financial aid having two kids in college (we might even get some aid this year). But as far as the costs, I think my parents are picking up most of it. They are very big on having me go to the college I want. In fact, my parents are begging me to go to Williams even if I get a half-tuition scholarship to Holy Cross, a very good school! As for grad school, I am hoping my success at such a high calibre institution will ensure scholarships at my chosen grad school. In fact, I know of people that are actually making money in grad school because of scholarships and the teaching they do there. And there are other ways I might get help financially. For example, my dad is a landlord, and owns properties in the northwest, and I could probably stay at one of his places if I were to go to grad school at U of Washington, U of Portland, or maybe some other place.

All in all, it may be tough for me financially, but I really don't care that much about money. I am one of the cheapest, least materialistic people I know. I don't care how nice my car, house, or anything is, and I won't mind living in poverty for a while too much. I don't plan on having a family until my late thirities, and by then things will be better. So I think I will be fine.

As far as public vs. private and competitive vs. non-competitive schools go, it seems that everyone is biased towards whichever they went to. All of the people from private schools have told me that the money is worth it for the superior education, and all of the people from public schools tell me you can get the same education at those schools for cheaper. So I really don't know who to believe. All I do know is that Williams is a great fit for me, and I will be way happier in that environment than I would at U of Idaho, or even a more competitive state university like Mich-Ann Arbor. I also think that the great resources, close quarter contact with some of the nation's best professors, and level of intellectualism in the student body makes Williams a lot better than any state university in the country.

And as far as prestige goes, that is NOT the reason I want to go there. If I was going for prestige, I would've applied to more than one ivy and to more colleges that people have actually heard of. I won't impress most people when I tell them I went to Williams as much as if I told them I went to Notre Dame or some other famous school I could get into.

And BTW, Rufus, where di your daughter get accepted?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Thanks Rufus. JohnT, I don't plan on being a high school teacher, I plan to be on the university level. That'll get me more than 40,000, and most of the professors at the very top universities went to selective and expensive undergrad colleges anyway.

Not true, at least in physics. Most Profs at top universities did grad school at top universities (and it is a bit easier to get in if undergrad at top universities.. but not much).

By the time you get to Professor level, undergrad is pretty much meaningless. Really, all undergrad does is give you a leg up on getting into grad school... but it isn't even that much of a leg up.

Research University Professors, in physics, have salaries beginning at about 100k a year. Liberal Arts college Professors on the otherhand, max out at about 100k a year.

You don't really get scholarships at grad school, you get fellowships. And those are dependent on research (at least in the sciences) Which is easier to get into as an undergraduate at Research Universities or very good Undergrads.

Jon Miller

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
And BTW, Rufus, where di your daughter get accepted?

Oh, she's not applying yet. We're just steeped in the process because our short trip back to the US this summer will be her only chance to visit schools before applying.

And now you've made me want to have her take a second look at Williams.

Congrats again!

[Jon Miller]

btw, I went to a mid tier Liberal Arts College, Gustavus Adolphus (although I think we were one of the better liberal arts colleges in physics)

JM

[Jon Miller]

And I guess my position is that yes, the competitiveness matters. But it matters a lot less then other things, and by the time (if you are going for Professor) you have had your PhD for a couple years, it is close to meaningless.

JM
(more than those who say it has no effect, less than you seem to imply in your post)

[Jon Miller]

Why I favor liberal arts schools:

(and better ones do provide a better education, even if you do work for it and get into a good grad school, if your undergrad was incomplete you will have to do remedial stuff for a bit)

Closer experience with Professors.
Closer and more tightnet community.
I came from a small community (my class was only ~70 people in highschool), I think I would have been overwelmed at a Research University.

Research Unversities I think can be better though. In particular because of research opportunities (they are also generally cheaper).

JM