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What Should the Voting Age Be?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by asleepathewheel
    Its fairly common to have a voting restriction for someone mentally disabled.



    that article is a few years old, so perhaps things have changed a bit since that I am unaware of.
    The way things work for the metally ill is there is a presumption of competence that can be overturned by an official declaration by a court. I would think that'd be appropriate for youth as well.

    Heck even a refutable presumption of incapacity would be a step forward. Currently there is no flexibility at all with the standard we use. No matter how many college degrees someone has, or what their IQ is, or how mature and responsible they are, if they are 17 years and 364 days old they can't vote. Nothing they do besides waiting will change that.


    btw, a comment on another blog on this issue struck me as interesting, so I'll post it. Not because I'm saying we should lower the voting age to 5, but just to demonstrate the point that most of the people here really don't have honest, unbiased views of youth. Either we relate to them on a parent-child power dynamic that prevents us from seeing their true self (though there are many parents who are able to mitigate this), or we see them from afar as screaming teens on MTV or stereotypes on tv shows, or as random, impersonal examples passing on the street. Worse yet many of the impressions people here have of teens is their own hazy memories of how things were 10 or 20 years ago for them and their friends.

    My experience has been that when you relate to a teen as an equal and discuss matters with them openly, candidly and as anyone else in society you'd really have to make an effort to remember they aren't your peer in every way. Cause honestly, they are.

    Anyways the quote, simply a balanced observation:

    I have a five year old. In my conversations with him, I think he sees some political and social issues surprisingly clearly. I honestly do not believe that the cognitive ability required to vote is beyond any human being with a basic grasp of language, frankly; if they get the idea that words represent things, and that words allow them to communicate with others, then they know that who they vote for can make a real person be in charge, and they understand the basics of relationships between individuals and society. Moreover, *as* children, they have a very immediate grasp of the complexity of issues involved in power, leadership, and fairness--more so than a lot of adults, who in their day-to-day life don't really have other people setting rules for them directly.

    Having said all that, PK also can't read: so he wouldn't be able to read a ballot. And he relies for his understanding of political issues on his parents' explanations of current events and how the relationship between the three branches of government works, etc. But when that stuff is explained, he *does* get it. The cognitive ability thing isn't the issue; the issue is simply a version of the same issue with adults, which is that the *ability* to understand and make an informed decision doesn't necessarily mean that a given individual *will* bother to educate him- or herself, or that the sources he or she relies on for education will be reliable or accurate.
    Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

    When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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    • #62
      18

      kids are too dumb to vote
      CSPA

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      • #63
        Originally posted by notyoueither
        I disagree with you.

        I think the myths of the 50's and 60's have done a lot to infantalise people under the age of 18.
        Agreed. The infantalization of youth is something that a lot of people here aren't picking up on.

        To a degree people will fill the container they are put in. We currently have, as a society, very low opinions of youth and they respond (a surprizing number continue to rise above however).

        In other cultures where youth have more respect and responsibility and an esteemed role to play in society they rise to it. Does that mean we should make all youth go out and get a fulltime job and work in a coal mine or something? No. But it also doesn't mean we should pat them on the head, give them a lollipop and tell them to go play in a sandbox till they are 18.

        Furthermore, if critics of further enfranchisement were to look at blacks in the 1860s, or women at the turn of the century they would find numerous examples supporting their negative opinions of the capacity of both groups. Did that mean blacks and women were genetically inferior to white men? No. It meant that we have treated them as inferiors for so long they bought into it.
        Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

        When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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        • #64
          Originally posted by BlackCat


          In some societies you either are grown up at early age or you are dead, but that I don't consider to be a problem in neither us, canada or denmark.

          In neither of those three countries your childhood in any way prepares you for carrying guns or driving cars at the age of 16.

          As I said earlier, I don't think that there are happening anything magical at the age of 18, but that is typically the age where you become a legal body in several ways. If the voting age should be lower, the same should happen to these.
          Actually, here you can...

          get married
          quit school and go to work full time
          join the military
          drive
          shoot
          have bank accounts
          ... Some of these require parental consent.

          About all you cannot do is drink, vote, and sign some types of contracts (although I beleive you may if you have left home and are supporting yourself).

          It seems that 18 for the vote is in the minority for serious consequences of age.
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          • #65
            Suffrage for toddlers now! Free the slave-children!
            ~ If Tehben spits eggs at you, jump on them and throw them back. ~ Eventis ~ Eventis Dungeons & Dragons 6th Age Campaign: Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4: (Unspeakable) Horror on the Hill ~

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            • #66
              Originally posted by notyoueither


              I disagree with you.

              I think the myths of the 50's and 60's have done a lot to infantalise people under the age of 18.


              Actually, I think that children in the 50's and 60's probably was much more mature than todays.
              With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

              Steven Weinberg

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              • #67
                Quitting school and getting married seem to be far more important decisions in one's life necessitating far more responsible decision making than casting a ballot for John Kerry or Geoge Bush.
                Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by BlackCat




                  Actually, I think that children in the 50's and 60's probably was much more mature than todays.
                  Would that have something to do with how they were treated?
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                  (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by BlackCat




                    Actually, I think that children in the 50's and 60's probably was much more mature than todays.
                    That is actually not true.
                    Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                    When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by notyoueither


                      Actually, here you can...

                      get married
                      quit school and go to work full time
                      join the military
                      drive
                      shoot
                      have bank accounts
                      ... Some of these require parental consent.

                      About all you cannot do is drink, vote, and sign some types of contracts (although I beleive you may if you have left home and are supporting yourself).

                      It seems that 18 for the vote is in the minority for serious consequences of age.
                      I don't think that we disagress that much - I just think that all of these things should coincide - not you may drive at 16; vote at 18; drink at 21 etc. Either you are considered a fully "grown up" or you are not.
                      With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                      Steven Weinberg

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                      • #71
                        Then the weight of responsibility seems to come sooner than 18.
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                        • #72
                          The law allows 16 year olds to do many thing that few if any 16 year olds do anymore. Very few people get married at 16, they certainly do NOT join the military at that age in any great amount, few quit school permanently and having a bank account is not some immense achievement. Neither are driving or shooting for that matter.

                          Voting is the most important right of a citizen. You are not a full citizen until you are 18. Even if you are married, have kids, whatever. Voting is about making decisions not just about your life, but the acitons of the polity.

                          If you are an idiot and get married at a young age and it goes badly, well, tough luck moron, but voting means you are part of the decision making of the polity. Hence the difference, and hence why only Citizens are allowed to vote.
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by notyoueither


                            I disagree with you.

                            I think the myths of the 50's and 60's have done a lot to infantalise people under the age of 18.
                            So what? Back in the 50's and 60's in the US the voting age in many places was 21.
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                            • #74
                              Going back to the 70's...

                              There was a guy in my class for the first day of the 7th grade (he was probably 14). He wasn't there on the 2nd day, or any day after that.

                              He quit school and went to work fulltime as a mechanic (he was quite good from what I've heard). The school and social services authorities could probably have tried to take him away from his parents (assuming he didn't leave there as well) and put into some form of care where they might have tried to force him to go to school. They didn't.

                              He was recently elected to the provincial legislature.
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                              (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by notyoueither


                                Would that have something to do with how they were treated?

                                What else ?
                                With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                                Steven Weinberg

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