The story of Purim.... why did they kill Haman(boo!)'s sons?

[lord of the mark]

BHU is a cool place, BTW. Ive taken several courses there. One of the things I miss about Baltimore.

and Tov Pizza of course. One of the few pizza joints that also runs an evening service.

[KrazyHorse]

I get an earful about it every day.

I think I know the names and mannerisms of every professor there...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
No ****ing clue. I can ask when I see him later

I'm going to guess that it's pretty big, though. Lonny teaches grade 3s, Ben teaches grade 5s, and I think they each have like 20-30 kids

Yup, that makes it one of the big ones. In balt the Non-O shuls are either pretty big, or really small, for the most part. So its one of the mighty 5, I suspect. That would be either Chizuk amuno or Beth El (Conserv) or Baltimore Hebrew, Oheb Shalom, or Har Sinai(?) (Reform)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I get an earful about it every day.

I think I know the names and mannerisms of every professor there...

Really - is the Dead Sea scrolls guy still there - im blanking out on name, but took two course with him. Orthodox rabbi, but educated in the Greek and Roman classics.

I also took archaelogy with barry gittlen.

edit - Baumgarten, of course. And hes retired, apparently.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I know that. I live with 3 Jews, 2 of whom study at Baltimore Hebrew University and teach Sunday school to Jewish kids at a synagogue. God is a bloodthirsty ******* in other bits of nastiness.

teach sunday school, at a synagogue? what kinda jews are these? jews worshipping on sunday...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MRT144


teach sunday school, at a synagogue? what kinda jews are these? jews worshipping on sunday...

the kids have to get up on Saturday to go to Synagogue, and again on Sunday for school. The sacrifices to keep a civilization alive

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Really - is the Dead Sea scrolls guy still there - im blanking out on name, but took two course with him. Orthodox rabbi, but educated in the Greek and Roman classics.

Yeah, I think they've mentioned him.

I also took archaelogy with barry gittlen.

Yup. He's one of the names mentioned a lot, along with Dr. Freundel(?)

EDIT: I think Baumgarten is still around the school. They've definitely said his name before.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Yeah, I think they've mentioned him.

I also took archaelogy with barry gittlen.

Yup. He's one of the names mentioned a lot, along with Dr. Freundel(?)

Gittlen is really good. Some of the theories on the history of early Israel and the nature of the "exodus" you may have seen posted here are straight from Gittlen's course, as seen through hazy memory

Freundel seems to be the replacement for Baumgarten as Rabbinics prof. Hes the rabbi of a VERY modern Orthodox shul in DC (in Georgetown) The one attended by Senator Lieberman, as a matter of fact. He WAS a vice president of the Orthodox Union the more modern of the Ortho associations - he left the OU, though, over some internal matters. Im not sure if hes still the rabbi at Kesher Israel. Queen of the Mark went to school with his wife.

Small world, huh?

[lord of the mark]

Freundel is also a rather smart guy, BTW. And yes, hes still at KI, apparently.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Well, its not used in definitional Jewish texts. Its used by the majority of English speaking Jews, but its not well integrated into Jewish civilization. Its certainly useful when describing say Christianity or Islam, and almost all english speaking Jews would use it for Christianity and Islam. Some Jews wouldnt use to describe anything in Jewish civilization. Some Jews would use it carefully, the way KH is doing. Some, out of ignorance of Jewish civilization, would use it in ways that imply Judaism is a "religion" like Christianity.

Im sorry if youre stuck on my use of the word "foreign" If you wish you may substitute "a word of foreign origin, which describes the realities of the civilization in which it originates, and is misleading in understanding Jewish civilization" Thats a lot of typing though.

This just goes back to my point that this is simply a cop-out argument that could be used against almost anything you don't like. It's absolute and arbitary, backed up by 'definitional texts' - which you earlier said were supposed to be wrestled with.

How can religion not be 'well integrated' with 'Jewish civilization' when you yourself admit that most Jews use the concept? What precisely is the problem with it?

[Last Conformist]

If the Torah isn't a religious text, the Enuma Elish isn't either. Anyone feel like arguing that one?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


This just goes back to my point that this is simply a cop-out argument that could be used against almost anything you don't like. It's absolute and arbitary, backed up by 'definitional texts' - which you earlier said were supposed to be wrestled with.

How can religion not be 'well integrated' with 'Jewish civilization' when you yourself admit that most Jews use the concept? What precisely is the problem with it?

Doh. Its an English word. We speak English. We live in more than one civilization at a time. I know and love Shakespeare. Ive read the NT. Im familiar with lots of concepts from my being part of Western civilization.

The problem with the western categorization, is that it implies there are things called religions, which have to do with which god you worship, and how, and then there are nations or ethnicities, that have to do with group membership and customs in areas that are secular. There is a more or less clear (at least in theory) division between the religious and the secular (render unto caesar that which is caesars) and religion transcends nationality (savior to the jews and also to the gentiles) These things are at the heart of Christianity.

Neither is really applicable to Jewish civilization. The religious sphere is interwoven with the secular sphere. There really isnt a secular sphere - there is the word profane (choloni) but thats not the same thing - the everyday profane world is filled with and regulated by divine law. And Judaism isnt a set of dogmas - theres been question among authorities if there is ANY set of beliefs thats obligatory - and even the maximalists still have a relatively skimpy set of dogmas - the room for play on dogma is great. There are texts that must be read and honored, but they can be interpretated in many different ways. And BEING a member of the Jews isnt being a believer in any set of beliefs about G-d - if you stop beleiving, youre still a Jew - if you stop doing anything Jewish youre still a jew, just one who is failing to do the obligations God gave to your people. When you "convert" to Judaism, you dont just take on some beliefs - you join a people, and even get a substitute parentage - converts to Judaism are called children of Abraham and Sarah.

This is really just off the top of my head. Books have been written about this. If youre really interested I could try to find some for you.

[Last Conformist]

I'm tempted to argue that being part of Western civilization necessarily implies thinking religion and ethnicity orthogonal ...

On of the things I find objectionable about Judaicism is the "once a Jew always a Jew" thing. If I'm a Christian, I can apostatize. If I'm a member of a nation, I can be assimilated into another. But if I'm a Jew, I'm apparently doomed to remain one no matter what I do.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


the kids have to get up on Saturday to go to Synagogue, and again on Sunday for school. The sacrifices to keep a civilization alive

jews ARE evil!

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Doh. Its an English word. We speak English. We live in more than one civilization at a time. I know and love Shakespeare. Ive read the NT. Im familiar with lots of concepts from my being part of Western civilization.

The problem with the western categorization, is that it implies there are things called religions, which have to do with which god you worship, and how, and then there are nations or ethnicities, that have to do with group membership and customs in areas that are secular. There is a more or less clear (at least in theory) division between the religious and the secular (render unto caesar that which is caesars) and religion transcends nationality (savior to the jews and also to the gentiles) These things are at the heart of Christianity.

Neither is really applicable to Jewish civilization. The religious sphere is interwoven with the secular sphere. There really isnt a secular sphere - there is the word profane (choloni) but thats not the same thing - the everyday profane world is filled with and regulated by divine law. And Judaism isnt a set of dogmas - theres been question among authorities if there is ANY set of beliefs thats obligatory - and even the maximalists still have a relatively skimpy set of dogmas - the room for play on dogma is great. There are texts that must be read and honored, but they can be interpretated in many different ways. And BEING a member of the Jews isnt being a believer in any set of beliefs about G-d - if you stop beleiving, youre still a Jew - if you stop doing anything Jewish youre still a jew, just one who is failing to do the obligations God gave to your people. When you "convert" to Judaism, you dont just take on some beliefs - you join a people, and even get a substitute parentage - converts to Judaism are called children of Abraham and Sarah.

This is really just off the top of my head. Books have been written about this. If youre really interested I could try to find some for you.

Christianity from earliest times included this idea.

Christians are called vhildren of Abraham (in the NT).

JM