The story of Purim.... why did they kill Haman(boo!)'s sons?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


Damn right. Funny how the bloodbaths tend to get played down at Sunday school. Apart from the Flood.

Every year the kids hear about the ten plagues. when theyre little they sing songs about frogs in pharoahs bed. When theyre old enough, they get to wrestle with questions of justice and individual responsibility.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

75k other people... well that must have crippled the Persian economy, and no wander Alexander got to kick their ass in 150 years


as for Egyptians... the most convulted part is that God first made the Pharaon to be "hard" and than punished them all for it, and than rinse and repeat. In that light like a sadist wanting to have 10 goes to show who is the boss around there. One weird story. Perhaps you could get away that this was "showing egyptians" that the dictator (pharaon) was not God, as presumably they believed that. This could be some kind of explanation.

[lord of the mark]

two customs you should be aware of.

The day before passover, among traditional Jews, first born sons are required to fast, to commerate the plague.

At the passover seder, when we drink the wine, we remove a drop for each plague, to show our joy is diminished by the suffering of the Egyptians.

The plagues, esp the last one, are, along with much else, part of the sense that they entire exodus story is uncanny - its a time filled with miracles, its this mystical time at the start of jewish history. During this time Aarons sons dies for approaching the Ark of the covenant. God isnt anger managed, and hes not angry either. Hes a force of being, something deep in the nature of the universe. He hasnt been reduced to the bearded old man of conventional religion.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

but the ark always held the "mythical" power, until it got lost didn't it?

Anyhow... it is interesting to hear that the tradition still shows respect for the suffering of the enemy.

I personally am not really familar with Judaism, but is Judaist version of God likewise "boxed into a bearded dude with rulebook" like Christian version or not? I kind of expected a different vision to stay within that religion.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Every year the kids hear about the ten plagues. when theyre little they sing songs about frogs in pharoahs bed. When theyre old enough, they get to wrestle with questions of justice and individual responsibility.

Ahh. So it's kid-safe if God is the one commiting genocide.

[Az]

Well, in terms of religionism, this is always the case - god cannot do wrong since he is the source of morality.

[Sandman]

Some religions think that God commands things because they're good - i.e God is not the ultimate source of morality.

Plato's dilemma

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
Some religions think that God commands things because they're good - i.e God is not the ultimate source of morality.

Plato's dilemma

actually both metaethical views are held within Judaism - its a diverse religion, with relatively few dogmas.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


Ahh. So it's kid-safe if God is the one commiting genocide.

Its kid safe to let young people wrestle with the most difficult parts of our texts. I wouldnt want to be part of a religion that didnt let them do that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
but the ark always held the "mythical" power, until it got lost didn't it?

Anyhow... it is interesting to hear that the tradition still shows respect for the suffering of the enemy.

I personally am not really familar with Judaism, but is Judaist version of God likewise "boxed into a bearded dude with rulebook" like Christian version or not? I kind of expected a different vision to stay within that religion.

There are definitely "old man with a beard" views within Judaism, and of course much of the bible can be read that way. Maimonides, a rationalist in the Aristotelean tradition, considered any anthropomorphic view of the diety as a form of idolatry, and would have held that reference to G-d as "Angry" "Compassionate" etc must all be understood differently. Coming from a different basis, mystics also have a view of G-d that isnt an old man with a beard. However neither Maimonideanism nor mysticism are universally accepted in Judaism, and certainly there are some Jews who either out of fundamentalism, or out of ignorance, read the texts literally.


AFAIK there isnt a large and vibrant Jewish community anywhere near you, or Id suggest that you explore it. There are many sites on the web though.

I dont have time to research this for you, but id suggest googling "Slaying of the first born Pesach" or "Slaying of the first born Midrash" to get some sermons that address the matter. (just searching on "Slaying of the first born" would mainly get you Christian sources) Dont focus too much on the first source you get - the whole point is that there is a diversity of views, and a diversity of old rabbinic sources that a modern sermonizer can look to in understanding a Torah text.

[Berzerker]

You should come to my shul the next time that parsha comes up.

Sure thing, let me know when so I can step into my teleporter

Im not going to argue it here. Just pointing that religious Jews are quite aware of the more difficult sections of the bible, and have been wrestling with them for centuries. If you like that wrestling, you should join us. If you dont, thats fine. But the notion that somehow we overlooked your fine insights strikes as bizarre, coming from otherwise intelligent people.

I didn't even mention Jews or what they overlook, only that the OT deity that killed the first-born of Egypt is not where I look for lessons in morality or justice. But since you bring up the Jews, how do they rationalise the evil of their deity?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Sure thing, let me know when so I can step into my teleporter



I didn't even mention Jews or what they overlook, only that the OT deity that killed the first-born of Egypt is not where I look for lessons in morality or justice. But since you bring up the Jews, how do they rationalise the evil of their deity?

I dont have time to research and write a sermon for you. There are many different perspectives. If youre really interested in researching some jewish opinions on it, rather than making a rhetorical point, there are many sources.


BTW, this is a thread about Purim, posted ON Purim. Therefore it would seem to be the Jewish POV thats relevant. I dont know the Christian perspective.

I also dont know what you mean by OT diety - do you mean Ming?

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Its kid safe to let young people wrestle with the most difficult parts of our texts. I wouldnt want to be part of a religion that didnt let them do that.

Your use of the word 'wrestle' strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. Religions need followers - a religion which encourages wrestling probably won't last very long. Although the multi-faceted nature of Jewishness probably helps in this regard.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Berzerker

didn't even mention Jews or what they overlook, only that the OT deity that killed the first-born of Egypt is not where I look for lessons in morality or justice. But since you bring up the Jews, how do they rationalise the evil of their deity?

Jews arent supposed to copy every action of the diety. We're not G-d. We are supposed to look toward the law thats given, not to the narrative parts of the Torah. Which is why Vesayen's question was more relevant, since it addressed HUMAN action recorded in Megillat Esther.

Now could we keep this discussion on Purim?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


Your use of the word 'wrestle' strikes me as a bit of an overstatement. Religions need followers - a religion which encourages wrestling probably won't last very long.

3000 years plus, and still ticking, despite some fairly nasty things done to reduce our numbers.

Im sorry if you dont take my word about wrestling. I can only suggest you actually take a look at a textually commited Jewish community. In your neck of the woods Id suggest a "progressive" or the more rare "masorti" synagogue. The Orthodox also wrestle with the meaning of the texts, but in different ways.

If you dont want to do that, and want to get a sense of how Jews struggle with texts, you could do worse than to read Elie Wiesel (the books that address Jewish religion, not the ones on his personal holocaust experiences)