Barry Bonds... new book details performance enhancing drug use

[-Jrabbit]

Hmm, since Ming hasn't posted in this thread, I don't know what you're saying.

Baseball - and most pro sports - have a long history of turning a blind eye to cheating. But there's a big difference between spitballs and designer steroids.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Hmm, since Ming hasn't posted in this thread, I don't know what you're saying.

Ming constantly says (and I agree) that it wasn't against baseball rules before 2003. Therefore any steroid use beforehand is not cheating. If isn't against the rules, not cheating.

OTOH, spitballs were against the rules after the 1910s, but Rollie Fingers got to the HoF using it through his entire career. That was ACTUAL cheating, against the rules.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ming in 3... 2... 1

FWIW, I agree with Ming, if it wasn't against the rules, it ain't cheating.

Yeah... running late tonight

And I repeat what I've said in other threads... MLB didn't have the balls to outlaw it back then. While they finally did, it wasn't against the rules at the time, and can't be cheating. Do I like it... no... but, since there was no rule... MLB pretty much didn't care, and one could say that by them ignoring it, actually endorsed it...
Wrong... YES... Cheating... NO... it wasn't against the rules.

[Berzerker]

Barry Bonds... scumbag... cheater... science experiment.

Mr Hyde

[-Jrabbit]

Well, it's a good point. Rules define the game, and anything not covered in the rules is technically fair. So why were all the players and the league so desperately in denial if there was no rule against it?

Ironic in light of what's going on in the baseball draft at FFZ...

[Imran Siddiqui]

What's going on in the baseball draft at FFZ?

And they were "in denial" for PR reasons, basically. Same reason they have been for amphetimines. Hell, the league was in denial about Fingers' spitballs (another form of PR... he was popular, kicking him out would have angered fans).

[-Jrabbit]

S.O.S. - Rules not laid out, upset over a Bapay, everything stops until it's sorted. Fortunately, I'm not playing this year.

There have been a lot of dirty little secrets over the years. In baseball it was greenies, in the NFL it was steroids. The 70s were a different era, and we didn't have 24/7 media coverage. Heck, cable TV barely existed until the end of the decade.

According to this argument, we should get rid of the Rollie Fingers and Gaylord Perry (and lots more) -- who used cleverness and guile to succeed -- because there was a rule against spitballs.

But we should reward Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds -- who used ILLEGAL substances to succeed -- becasue MLB didn't a rule in place. Yeah, that's fair.

[Imran Siddiqui]

According to this argument, we should get rid of the Rollie Fingers and Gaylord Perry (and lots more) -- who used cleverness and guile to succeed -- because there was a rule against spitballs.

But we should reward Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds -- who used ILLEGAL substances to succeed -- becasue MLB didn't a rule in place. Yeah, that's fair.

Well, if we are speaking of fairness, why is it unfair? Fingers and Perry actually did violate rules of baseball and admitted that they did later on. McGwire and Sosa, at least, broke no MLB rule. They may have broken the law, but MLB doesn't enforce that. Bonds pre 2003 is in the same boat as McGwire and Sosa (and scores of other players of the 90s). 2003 and beyond, he may be in Fingers, Perry catagory. It's a question of violating rules.

Personally, I'd actually keep Fingers and Perry in the Hall, because in my mind, you can't erase what happened on the field, whatever it was. For that same reason Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds may be 'rewarded' by me. It's also why I'd put Rose in the HoF. IMO, it should be blind to anything that didn't happen within the contours of the playing field, but that's just me.

[-Jrabbit]

I don't think we're actually in opposition here.

My only problem with these guys getting into the HOF is the fact that their actions were illegal, and thus puts MLB in the position of tacitly condoning the breaking of the law. I don't deny their accomplishments. I rue the fact that millionaires don't get conviction records for stuff like this. I just hope their balls shrivel up and fall off.

Gaining a competitive edge is one thing, crossing the line to breaking federal law is quite another.

I think Pete Rose is a class A jerk, but felt that way back when he was popping greenies. Now he's a cartoon image of himself, and pretty pathetic. But gambling as a manager should not negate 20+ years of on-field accomplishments.

Fair? Let's talk Shoeless Joe...

[Drake Tungsten]

Who's more deserving of a banning, Pete Rose or Barry Bonds?

Bonds.

we should get rid of the Rollie Fingers and Gaylord Perry

Perry should be kicked out for his name alone. We don't want the Hall going all brokeback on us now, do we?

[snoopy369]

Wasn't steroid use TECHNICALLY against the rules, just not meaningfully enforced? Otherwise why was it such an interesting note that Andro was permitted by MLB (McGwire's admitted steroid-like substance) in 98, and not that all were okay?

[Sikander]

I've made my peace with MLB. They allow steroid use, and I don't attend or watch their games.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Fair? Let's talk Shoeless Joe...

You won't get any argument from me. Hell, I think after they died, they should have been brought up for a meaningful debate over whether they should get into the Hall. After all, they were banned FOR LIFE. Once they die, their penance is served.

[q=snoopy369]Wasn't steroid use TECHNICALLY against the rules, just not meaningfully enforced?[/q]

No. Steroids was never against the rules until 2003.

Otherwise why was it such an interesting note that Andro was permitted by MLB

Cause everyone knew that McGwire was taking andro. No one knew if he was taking anything else.

[Ming]

Yeah... baseball was in sorry shape, and McGwire and Sosa revived the sport. MLB new damn well what was going, and as they have always done when it came to steroids... they ignored it. There was no rule against it, and they weren't interested in having one. It wasn't until they were dragged kicking and screaming did they make it against the rules, and then started testing for it.
So steriod use wasn't cheating until then.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sikander
I've made my peace with MLB. They allow steroid use, and I don't attend or watch their games.

Now if only the rest would allow this god awful sport to die its deserved death.

Football, American as apple pie.