Hall of Famer Kirby Puckett dies

[Imran Siddiqui]

"arc of career" does matter... if a guy has 3 or 4 good years, then sucks for 10 years... he's not going in the hall... period.

If his final statistics are good enough, then he will be entering the Hall, even if he only had 3-4 good years and was average for the rest, such as Richie Ashburn (who also doesn't deserve to be in the Hall, mind). Or even worse, Luis Aparicio, who had ONE good year.

Jose was a roided up monster. So was McGwire. That's why they won't be making the Hall. Jose wouldn't have anyways. But that's because he didn't make the arbitrary 500 homer mark. Also, besides hitting homers (the product of his steroid use), he wasn't very good.

Canseco was the best player of the late 80s. He was able to hit HRs consistently in the twilight of his career. You may consider it the product of steroid use, but how many people have used amphetamines, steroids, etc, who are currently in the Hall? Hell, Hank Aaron used to chug down red juice (ie, liquid amphetamines).

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Sava
so you want to keep Puckett out of the Hall because of 700 hits?

which he could have gotten in 4 seasons that he missed due to his injury?

Like I said, we don't do could have, should have, would have. Otherwise, taking it to the NFL Hall of Fame, Terrell Davis deserves to be a Hall of Famer.

Though if I was starting all over, Molitor wouldn't make it in my HoF (I wouldn't use 3000 hits or 500 HRs are floors, Winfield could take a hike too).

Molitor also was basically a DH for most of his career. Puckett was great defensively... winning Gold Glove after Gold Glove.

But then again, I guess that whole aspect of his game doesn't matter to you because it isn't listed in a stat book.

Like I pointed out, Gold Gloves don't tell me anything defensively. DEREK JETER has 2 of them. And Mattingly has 9 of them, even when he was basically a total stiff at 1B because of his back he was winning them... simply based on name alone.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


How does batting average = World Series?

Maybe you should have read the whole post, not just that one part.

Yes, batting average is overrated. It's about GETTING ON BASE.

Let me explain something to you, since you obviously have never PLAYED BASEBALL or else you would understand this.

A hit is more valuable than a walk when there are runners on base. In fact, a hit is probably more valuable than a walk any time... there is always the potential for an error or an extra base. With a walk, there isn't. But whatever. I'm sure you will argue that the extra few pitches that comes with a walk is important.

Anyways, a hit with runners on base can score a runner, or move a runner from first to third. A walk doesn't do this.

But yet, both a hit and a walk count the same in OBP.

Funny how stats don't seem to count the value of hits.

But yet you seem to think OBP is more valuable than batting average. In some cases, you want to look at a guy's OBP. But OBP is not everything. Or else, there would be no need to keep track of batting average.

Maybe you need to go play some baseball to understand this again. I think your problem is, you focus too much on the numbers and not enough on the actual game.

Numbers are a great tool to use, but you can lose yourself in them if you don't know how to use them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

A hit is more valuable than a walk when there are runners on base. In fact, a hit is probably more valuable than a walk any time... there is always the potential for an error or an extra base. With a walk, there isn't.

Is a walk more imporant than getting an out, Sava? Isn't the first goal to not get out (unless you are sacrificing) and then to score a run? OBP is the only measure that shows how successful you are in not getting out.

Furthermore it has been shown that the stat that most corresponds to scoring runs is OBP.

But yet, both a hit and a walk count the same in OBP.

Funny how stats don't seem to count the value of hits.

And in OPS, base hits count double than outs, even though they are really only 1.4 times more valuable. So, if anything, OPS overstats hits.

Anyways, a hit with runners on base can score a runner, or move a runner from first to third. A walk doesn't do this.

This may make sense if Puckett had more than THREE years with over 100 RBIs! He didn't bat people in, nor did he get on base as much as the two batters you compared him to. Boggs and Gwynn had an excuse for a lack of RBI. They got on base. What's Puckett's excuse?

Numbers are a great tool to use, but you can lose yourself in them if you don't know how to use them.

Exactly. Sava you have no idea how to use numbers and have lost yourself in batting average.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

If his final statistics are good enough, then he will be entering the Hall, even if he only had 3-4 good years and was average for the rest, such as Richie Ashburn (who also doesn't deserve to be in the Hall, mind). Or even worse, Luis Aparicio, who had ONE good year.

Richie Ashburn has a career OBP of nearly .400 a career batting average of .308, among other career accomplishments and highlights... and was overshadowed by CF's of his era by Willy Mays, Mantle, and Snider.

Aparicio became the first player since Ty Cobb to have 3 straight 50 steal seasons and really showed that the SB could be a weapon again. Besides that, he has 9 Gold Gloves. He broke the record for assists for SS's and (as of 1995) held the record for highest fielding % for a SS.

But I forgot... defense doesn't matter.

Aparacio... Ten time All Star.

You obviously have no historical perspective.

Canseco was the best player of the late 80s. He was able to hit HRs consistently in the twilight of his career. You may consider it the product of steroid use, but how many people have used amphetamines, steroids, etc, who are currently in the Hall? Hell, Hank Aaron used to chug down red juice (ie, liquid amphetamines).

I bet you think Barry Bonds should be in the Hall.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Exactly. Sava you have no idea how to use numbers and have lost yourself in batting average.

That's right.

I've only been a baseball fan my entire life. I've only been going to SABR meeting with my dad since I was 5. Reading Bill James encyclopedias since I could read. Playing APBA my whole life...

yeah, I don't know how to use the numbers at all...




I'm gonna save this thread. This is awesome.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Richie Ashburn has a career OBP of nearly .400 a career batting average of .308, among other career accomplishments and highlights... and was overshadowed by CF's of his era by Willy Mays, Mantle, and Snider.

With absolutely no power. .382 SLG. 111 OPS+. Good OBP, but little else.

Aparicio became the first player since Ty Cobb to have 3 straight 50 steal seasons and really showed that the SB could be a weapon again. Besides that, he has 9 Gold Gloves. He broke the record for assists for SS's and (as of 1995) held the record for highest fielding % for a SS.

And couldn't hit worth a lick. Career OPS+ of 82. 82!! That's far BELOW average. To be in the Hall of Fame, I think you should be able to hit. Hell, for the Cubbies last year, Jerry Hairston had an OPS+ of 84!

You obviously have no historical perspective.

If by 'perspective', you mean the overrated views of past players.

I bet you think Barry Bonds should be in the Hall.

Duh. Of course. And you do realize that he will make it, right?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I've only been a baseball fan my entire life. I've only been going to SABR meeting with my dad since I was 5. Reading Bill James encyclopedias since I could read. Playing APBA my whole life...

You apparently haven't been paying attention or learned anything. Otherwise, you wouldn't have stupidly brought in batting averages when you know that James considered it to be almost useless in the face of OBP and SLG.

[SlowwHand]

Never did I suspect that this thread would exhibit all the signs of instantaneous combustion.

I'm so proud.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

With absolutely no power. .382 SLG. 111 OPS+. Good OBP, but little else.

Not every player is a power hitter. The Hall of Fame is not a Hall of Power Hitters.

And couldn't hit worth a lick. Career OPS+ of 82. 82!! That's far BELOW average. To be in the Hall of Fame, I think you should be able to hit. Hell, for the Cubbies last year, Jerry Hairston had an OPS+ of 84!

The SS position was not a position where offense was stressed until only recently. If you had any historical perspective, you'd understand this.

If by 'perspective', you mean the overrated views of past players.

Maybe you should look at SS's from 10 years before and after Aparicio's career. Tell me what you find and then let me know if Luis is "overrated".

Duh. Of course. And you do realize that he will make it, right?

This story is breaking... An article is going to appear in the next Sports Illustrated. The book, mentioned in the article, which details the full extend of Bonds' steroids and other performance enhancing drug abuse (including Human Growth Hormone), will be released later this month.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/07/MNG90HJF4N22.DTL

And McGwire is not going in. If enough people wake up and see Bonds for the scumbag he is, Barry won't make it either.

And Bonds shouldn't be in the Hall. Cheaters shouldn't make it.

Where is the line drawn?

Gee... when it's uncovered that a player has cheated and his career is basically the product of a science experiment... HE SHOULDN'T MAKE IT

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero...

and if there is more evidence that gets uncovered about more players... then they shouldn't be in the Hall either

Period.

I don't care if they hit 1,000 home runs.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

You apparently haven't been paying attention or learned anything. Otherwise, you wouldn't have stupidly brought in batting averages when you know that James considered it to be almost useless in the face of OBP and SLG.

now you are just not making any sense at all



but that's okay

I wouldn't you to stop being entertaining

I brought up BA in reference to Puckett... not in any discussion about James' philosophy.

If you want to discuss James' philosophy, we can... but that's an entirely different thread.

You pretty much said Puckett's BA was irrelevant and that OBP was basically all that mattered. But that is contrary to the fact of how important Puckett was to the Twin's World Series victories. Had he walked instead of getting hits, he wouldn't have driven in the runs the Twins needed to win those games. For the purposes of OBP, those hits are unimportant. But for the purposes of the Twins World Series victories, those hits were absolutely necessary and integral to Minnesota's success... and frankly, the true mark of a Hall of Famer is coming through in the clutch like that... and Kirby Puckett delivered.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not every player is a power hitter.

No. And that is why there is a Hall of Fame, to reward the best. The players that can get on base and can hit for power. You realize Ty Cobb's SLG was .512? That's a Hall of Famer... not known for HRs, but he could hit doubles and triples.

The SS position was not a position where offense was stressed until only recently.

Indeed it was, but that doesn't mean we should stress any and all SS's who were not even average hitters. Aparacio won a lot of GG's, but he was no Ozzie Smith (who was almost a full point better in range factor than the average SS).

Of course there is context to your position, which is why Smith gets in. But you can't devalue it that much, or else Phil Rizzuto gets in, because he was a SS and had heart and was the soul of the team and all that BS.

Hell, right after Aparacio won the last of his GG's, Mark Belanger came around, who won 8 GGs, including 6 in a row in the 70s. Does he get HoF consideration?

And of course, Aparacio had Earnie Banks come during the time he played. True, Banks only one 1 GG, but he hit a Hell of a lot better.

If enough people wake up and see Bonds for the scumbag he is, Barry won't make it either.

You are delusional if you think Bonds won't make it in.

And Bonds shouldn't be in the Hall. Cheaters shouldn't make it.

Where is the line drawn?

Gee... when it's uncovered that a player has cheated and his career is basically the product of a science experiment... HE SHOULDN'T MAKE IT

Ok, Aaron out. Mantle out. Hell, most of the players of the 60s and 70s out. After all, they were using greenies the whole time.

Have you read what Mike Schmidt said? They were all over the place and the names on the perscriptions didn't match the players who were taking them.

I brought up BA in reference to Puckett... not in any discussion about James' philosophy.

If you really were attending SABR meetings and doing all the stuff you said you were, you'd realize why batting average is a poor measure. If you wanted to highlight that he hit RBI, why not say he had X RBI instead of his batting average, which you know is underinclusive?

And how does his batting average during the season correspond to his RBI during the WS? Why don't you compare batting average during the season to his RBI during the season and his batting average during the WS to his RBI during the WS?

Btw, you should know that during those WS, his OBP was fabulous. Much higher than during the year. .419 in in '87 and .367 in '91 (which isn't that great, but higher than his regular season OBP). His batting average in the '91 WS wasn't anything to smile about, at .250. His SLG was good though.

But that is contrary to the fact of how important Puckett was to the Twin's World Series victories.

And what about all the players who never made it to the World Series? I'm sure other players would have loved to have Kent Hrbek and Jack Morris. Ted Williams never won a WS and had a crappy time his only WS appearance, but we don't hold it against him at all. Just because you are good in one or two WS doesn't mean you automatically jump the line.

Hell, this reason ("clutch hitting in the playoffs") is going to get Bernie Williams inducted into the Hall of Fame .

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui




If you really were attending SABR meetings and doing all the stuff you said you were, you'd realize why batting average is a poor measure.

oh sorry that I wasn't actively participating in those discussions

I was 5

And what about all the players who never made it to the World Series? I'm sure other players would have loved to have Kent Hrbek and Jack Morris. Ted Williams never won a WS and had a crappy time his only WS appearance, but we don't hold it against him at all. Just because you are good in one or two WS doesn't mean you automatically jump the line.

Hell, this reason ("clutch hitting in the playoffs") is going to get Bernie Williams inducted into the Hall of Fame .

Fortunately for Puckett, what sets him apart from those other players you mentioned is his whole body of work... his career.

Which makes him unique.

And that's what you do. You judge each player individually, based on his merits, weigh his accomplishments accordingly... perhaps judge him to other players in his era at his position... if necessary.

But the absurd comparisons I'm seeing you make is just hilarious, and really, the content of your posts speaks for themselves.

But it's obvious you just don't get it.

I'm wasting my time here.

This is why I could never tutor... or why I'd make a horrible teacher. I don't have patience for... well...

nevermind

[Imran Siddiqui]

oh sorry that I wasn't actively participating in those discussions

I was 5

So you were just namedropping. Good to know

Fortunately for Puckett, what sets him apart from those other players you mentioned is his whole body of work... his career.

No. That's the point. It doesn't.

You judge each player individually, based on his merits, weigh his accomplishments accordingly... perhaps judge him to other players in his era at his position... if necessary.

And his accomplishments don't match up. Yes he won two WS and was a big part of both of them, but it wasn't like he was the only one on the Twins. But his regular season stats just aren't where they should be. Giving a player a mega boost simply for postseason success seems completely wrong to me. How do we not know that someone who never got there wouldn't have knocked the stuffing off the ball if he ever had a team capable of getting there? It makes it an unfair comparison. Great players need great teams to get to a WS. Unlike basketball, one great player can't take an average team to a championship.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


So you were just namedropping. Good to know

No dumas, I was a kid and I went to a lot of meetings with my dad. The thing is... being a kid, you don't really speak up in a discussion with adults. But you sit and listen and learn a lot.

No. That's the point. It doesn't.

A player's career doesn't matter?

And his accomplishments don't match up. Yes he won two WS and was a big part of both of them, but it wasn't like he was the only one on the Twins. But his regular season stats just aren't where they should be. Giving a player a mega boost simply for postseason success seems completely wrong to me. How do we not know that someone who never got there wouldn't have knocked the stuffing off the ball if he ever had a team capable of getting there? It makes it an unfair comparison. Great players need great teams to get to a WS. Unlike basketball, one great player can't take an average team to a championship.

the playoff success is just part of it

as is his gold gloves

as is his career average

as is his 6 silver slugger awards

as is his 5 seasons of 200 hits

I don't know what else Kirby could have done. He was the third best hitter of his era, next to Gwynn and Boggs. Had he not been beaned in the face and forced to retire, he would have most likely reached the COMPLETELY ARBITRARY 3,000 hit mark.

Just compare Puckett and Gwynn's career 1984-1995

That's all you need to do.

Case closed.