Hall of Famer Kirby Puckett dies

[Darius871]

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Baseball isn't art. It's a religion full of magic, cosmic truth, and the fundamental ontological riddles of our time .

Seriously though, that is what statistics are for. To take out the subjectivity. That's what the whole sabermetric revolution is about. Don't go 'on your gut' and go by the stats. Puckett wasn't a bad player. He was pretty damned good, but not good enough for the Hall, IMO, and subjective measures like "he was the leader" are BS to me.

Why was Puckett a better leader than Norm Cash? Who did win a WS. He also has an OPS+ 14 points better than Puckett and has over 2000 hits and 377 HRs, along with one of the greatest seasons of all time in 1961.

Which is why Puckett doesn't belong in the Hall of Sabremetrics.

However, it is called the Hall of Fame for a reason ... and Puckett was clearly very famous. More components exist in Fame than just stats; and Kirby had many of those in spades.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Which is why Puckett doesn't belong in the Hall of Sabremetrics.

However, it is called the Hall of Fame for a reason ... and Puckett was clearly very famous. More components exist in Fame than just stats; and Kirby had many of those in spades.

Oh please

Mattingly was famous as well. Are you going to put him in? There are plenty of undeserving players in the Hall because of "components other than just stats", which is code for subjective measures saying "I liked him", even if he really wasn't up to snuff.

[q=LoA]presence in the clubhouse is HUUGE.[/q]

And how do you measure it? How would the sportwriters know who was the 'presense'? How do you divide up 'presense in the clubhouse' among the various players? Or is this just more code for "I liked him".

[q=LoA]i think the reasoning why he was inducted was because he was the dominant player over the time what he was playing.[/q]

"Dominant Players" usually win at least ONE MVP award. Now, you can argue about players getting gypped MVP awards (such as Ted Williams, who deserved at least get 3 more), but Puckett never lost out one he should have gotten. He was never first in OPS+ (his closest was 4th in 1986).

One can argue that he wasn't even the dominant player in his own league in the era he played (Canseco probably gets that honor).

[Sava]

oh, Kirby Puckett does belong in the Hall of Fame

For all the morons who don't know **** about baseball who are just looking at his career totals and dismissing them... how about you look beyond the numbers at some of the intangibles.

career .318 batting average...

The only two players of that era who have a better career average than Kirby Puckett are Wade Boggs (.334 in 8941 PA) and Tony Gwynn (.336 in 7880 PA). Both in the Hall.

Puckett only has 2,300 hits, but that's because he struggled with an eye injury and was forced to retire because of it. He very well might have reached 3,000 hits if he wasn't forced to retire early. In fact, look at his police mugshot. (squint)

I'm comparing him to Gwynn 1984-1995

Puckett has 2,304 hits
Gwynn has 2,401 hits

Gwynn's career average to that point is .336, although Puckett has 200 more RBI. And Kirby even led the AL in RBI in one year (1994)... pretty amazing for a guy who didn't have a home run his first year in the majors.

In fact, Kirby Puckett is the only major league player to have a season with no home runs (min 500 AB's) and a season with 30 home runs.

And to the people who say Gold Gloves are "overrated"... sorry, but defense is a huge part of the game. It's not all about being all "roided" up and putting up big offensive stats.

That's why Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame.

And if Tony Gwynn's career was cut short in 1995, would you guys say he doesn't deserve to be in it just because he wouldn't have reached any of those magic "milestones"... 3,000 hits? 500 home runs?

And you can't begin to compare Puckett to other players from other eras. You look at Puckett, his accomplishments, and you judge him on his own merits.

But then again... this is why none of you guys have a Hall of Fame vote.

PWNED

also... 5 of his 11 seasons he had 200+ hits... 8 of 11 he had more than 180 hits... his worst hitting season, his batting average was .288 (his second season)

[Sava]

Kirby was beaned in the face the last day of the season in 1995. It broke his cheekbone and gave him permanent vision problems, causing him to retire from baseball. He hit .314 that year... also 23 homers and 99 RBI. That was a strike shortened year, too.

In the Bill James encyclopedia that I have (1995 PC edition) it says, "he is expected to make a full recovery for 1996".

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'll compare Puckett to Mattingly a lot in this post because Puckett is in and Mattingly will never get in.

The only two players of that era who have a better career average than Kirby Puckett are Wade Boggs (.334 in 8941 PA) and Tony Gwynn (.336 in 7880 PA). Both in the Hall.

Batting Average is overrated... look at his OBP. Not saying he wasn't a good player, but he didn't take many walks in his career. Puckett's OBP is .360, Boggs' was .415 and Gwynn's was .388. Quite a difference.

Mattingly's OBP is .358, almost the same as Puckett's.

Puckett only has 2,300 hits, but that's because he struggled with an eye injury and was forced to retire because of it. He very well might have reached 3,000 hits if he wasn't forced to retire early.

That's fine, but injuries are a part of baseball. Don Mattingly would have had 3000 hits if back problems hadn't struck. Its unfortunate, but they happen, and we don't engage in could of, should of, would of in these cases, otherwise in the NFL Hall of Fame, Terrell Davis would be in.

And to the people who say Gold Gloves are "overrated"... sorry, but defense is a huge part of the game.

I agree defense is a huge part of the game, but Gold Gloves don't really measure how good you are with the glove. After all Derek Jeter has two (In 2004 and 2005). Its a perception by sportswriters, but that doesn't really demonstrate how many runs you actually saved. I'm not saying Puckett isn't a good defensive OF. I'm just saying that I don't know how good he is.

FTR, Mattingly has 9 Gold Gloves at 1B.

And you can't begin to compare Puckett to other players from other eras.

Mattingly is from his own era. Mattingly hasn't come close to the Hall yet. Why? I don't think either deserves to get in, but if Puckett gets in, Mattingly should as well.

[Sava]

Mattingly's career doesn't compare to Puckett's at all

the numbers look similar to the lay person

but when you look season by season, their careers don't compare at all

this is why you fail

Mattingly had a great start to his career, but trailed off after about 4 good seasons.

Puckett was consistently good, and had his career cut short by injury.

As I showed, the comparison to Gwynn's career 1984-1995 is very similar...

Your problem, Imran, is that you only look at career totals. You don't look at the actual player, the individual years, the accomplishments... everything else that matters. To you, everything is about the career totals. To you, players are just names in a book. You don't seem to have any appreciation for what they actually did.

And this is why you have little or no credibility in these discussions.

But this whole discussion is pointless. Puckett is in the Hall, as he should be. He's not going to be removed.

I just felt like educating you. But as usual, it seems like I'm engaging in a fruitless effort. So I'm going to stop now.

Thanks for playing.

[Sava]

yes, Kirby's batting average total is overrated... that's why he won two WORLD SERIES




he hit .429 against the Blue Jays in the LCS that year (1991) and was the MVP

but batting average is overrated right?



I guess if he had just walked, he still would have driven in the runs, right?

oh wait... no... he wouldn't have.


dumas

and in 1987 he hit .357 in the World Series

[Sava]

9 of 11 seasons, Puckett was an All Star...

I know 9 time All Star isn't amazing... but keep in perspective his career was only 11 seasons.

That's how consistently good he was.








And for the record, I hate the Minnesota Twins.

[Sava]

let me ask you, Imran...

should Paul Molitor be in the Hall?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Mattingly had a great start to his career, but trailed off after about 4 good seasons.

Puckett was consistently good, and had his career cut short by injury.

One: Mattingly trailed off as a result of back problems. His career was hobbled and then cut short because of those injuries. He played in great pain every year after 1987.

Two: The arc of a career doesn't matter worth a damn. The Hall of Fame is for career accomplishment. Not which 5 seasons were your best, nor if you were consistent being above average.

Btw, Jose Canseco had a fairly consistent career (when he could get work), but he's not going into the Hall. He's a got an MVP and World Series ring. Him and McGwire were the heart and soul of that A's team that went to 3 straight World Series.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, Mattingly has an MVP award. Puckett doesn't (or didn't).

You don't look at the actual player, the individual years, the accomplishments... everything else that matters.

Or rather everything else that doesn't matter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Sava
let me ask you, Imran...

should Paul Molitor be in the Hall?

Merely for above average longevity (ie, getting to 3000 hits), he should be the absolute floor to the HoF. So, yes, but barely, and if he got injured and didn't hit the 3000 hit mark, I'd say no. But those marks (along with 500 HRs) seem to be the gateways.

If Puckett was able to play long enough to get 3000 hits, I'd say let him in (as being close to the floor). But injuries are a part of the game.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Sava
yes, Kirby's batting average total is overrated... that's why he won two WORLD SERIES

You are a total idiot aren't you? How does batting average = World Series? And if it does, where is Tony Gwynn's ring?

Yes, batting average is overrated. It's about GETTING ON BASE. And if you are talking about driving people in, you should probably find someone other than a player who drove in 100 or more runs only THREE times in his career! Yes... that's right... THREE! So he wasn't driving in a lot of RBIs and he wasn't getting on base all that much comparitively.

Thanks for making my points.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Two: The arc of a career doesn't matter worth a damn. The Hall of Fame is for career accomplishment. Not which 5 seasons were your best, nor if you were consistent being above average.

Btw, Jose Canseco had a fairly consistent career (when he could get work), but he's not going into the Hall. He's a got an MVP and World Series ring. Him and McGwire were the heart and soul of that A's team that went to 3 straight World Series.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, Mattingly has an MVP award. Puckett doesn't (or didn't).

Or rather everything else that doesn't matter.

oh man

this is some priceless stuff

"arc of career" does matter... if a guy has 3 or 4 good years, then sucks for 10 years... he's not going in the hall... period.

Jose was a roided up monster. So was McGwire. That's why they won't be making the Hall. Jose wouldn't have anyways. But that's because he didn't make the arbitrary 500 homer mark. Also, besides hitting homers (the product of his steroid use), he wasn't very good.

And sorry, winning one MVP award isn't a ticket to the Hall.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Merely for above average longevity (ie, getting to 3000 hits), he should be the absolute floor to the HoF. So, yes, but barely, and if he got injured and didn't hit the 3000 hit mark, I'd say no. But those marks (along with 500 HRs) seem to be the gateways.

If Puckett was able to play long enough to get 3000 hits, I'd say let him in (as being close to the floor). But injuries are a part of the game.

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

so you want to keep Puckett out of the Hall because of 700 hits?

which he could have gotten in 4 seasons that he missed due to his injury?

wow

just

wow


Molitor also was basically a DH for most of his career. Puckett was great defensively... winning Gold Glove after Gold Glove.

But then again, I guess that whole aspect of his game doesn't matter to you because it isn't listed in a stat book.