Hall of Famer Kirby Puckett dies

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Thankfully, presence in the clubhouse means something in Baseball.

A good leader/captain can make the team better as a whole. I'm pretty sure Kirby was a huge factor in the Twins' two Series wins.

There's gotta be a reason that Baseball Writers, among the most cynical of all those who write about a profession, chose Puckett for the HoF.

[Tuberski]

The big difference between him and Mattingly, is this:

They were both the heart and soul of their teams, but Kirby's team won 2 WS.

He was voted into the Hall therefore, he deserves to be in the Hall.

Case Closed.

ACK!

[Guynemer]

As TEF said, numbers aren't necessarily everything. Being a winner counts for a lot.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Ok, I have a question:

How come every time an "RIP" thread comes up on this site, does someone HAVE to say "Oh, they weren't THAT great"?

What is the purpose? Does it make those who won't be remembered in national headlines feel better about their own death? I honestly don't ever get it. Let the dead die with honor, then let history judge.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Thankfully, presence in the clubhouse means something in Baseball.

A good leader/captain can make the team better as a whole. I'm pretty sure Kirby was a huge factor in the Twins' two Series wins.

There's gotta be a reason that Baseball Writers, among the most cynical of all those who write about a profession, chose Puckett for the HoF.

Oy

Presence in the clubhouse is the most overrated attribute. How do you measure that? Writers stick it on the guy they like and who is anyone to disagree? Why isn't Kent Hrbek the 'presence in the clubhouse'?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Tuberski
The big difference between him and Mattingly, is this:

They were both the heart and soul of their teams, but Kirby's team won 2 WS.

He was voted into the Hall therefore, he deserves to be in the Hall.

Case Closed.

ACK!

The same rational for putting Phil Rizzuto in the Hall, who most definetly doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the Hall unless he bought a ticket.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Oy

Presence in the clubhouse is the most overrated attribute. How do you measure that? Writers stick it on the guy they like and who is anyone to disagree? Why isn't Kent Hrbek the 'presence in the clubhouse'?

How do you measure art? How do you compare performances?

You can't, but that's what the Oscars, Tonys, and Grammys are all about. The Hall of Fame is subjective, as is every other honor ever bestowed on anyone who received one.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
How do you measure art? How do you compare performances?

You can't, but that's what the Oscars, Tonys, and Grammys are all about. The Hall of Fame is subjective, as is every other honor ever bestowed on anyone who received one.

Baseball isn't art. It's a religion full of magic, cosmic truth, and the fundamental ontological riddles of our time .

Seriously though, that is what statistics are for. To take out the subjectivity. That's what the whole sabermetric revolution is about. Don't go 'on your gut' and go by the stats. Puckett wasn't a bad player. He was pretty damned good, but not good enough for the Hall, IMO, and subjective measures like "he was the leader" are BS to me.

Why was Puckett a better leader than Norm Cash? Who did win a WS. He also has an OPS+ 14 points better than Puckett and has over 2000 hits and 377 HRs, along with one of the greatest seasons of all time in 1961.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Easy. I've never heard of Norm Cash. That's a good enough reason for me

Seriously though, in my opinion it isn't about the numbers, and it shouldn't be. The HoF should induct people who do things that Kirby Puckett did: team leader, household name, advancement of baseball in the public eye, things like that. I don't think STATS should be the 1-and-Only qualifier, and I'm sure that's where we differ.

And Jim Rice still isn't in the Hall of Fame. It must not be all about stats.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

And again...isn't there another time and place to discuss whether someone was worthy of a certain life-altering honor than in a thread honoring them hours after they die?

[Imran Siddiqui]

IMO, stats should matter. Far more than they do now. Subjective ideas on leadership and being the 'heart and soul' of teams have led to people like Phil Rizzuto being inducted into the Hall.

And Jim Rice doesn't deserve to go into the Hall based on his stats. His OPS+ is 128, while good, is 1 point higher than Kent Hrbek. And he hasn't reached any major milestones (3000 hits, 500 HRs).

I think Rice shouldn't deserve a pass either.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
And again...isn't there another time and place to discuss whether someone was worthy of a certain life-altering honor than in a thread honoring them hours after they die?

Hey, when Rizzuto dies, everyone will invariably call him the worst person to be in the HoF.

But fine... if you are uncomfortable with it now, you can bring it up sometime else.

[Sava]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
And again...isn't there another time and place to discuss whether someone was worthy of a certain life-altering honor than in a thread honoring them hours after they die?

when someone dies, they become a topic of public discussion

their life's work, the legacy they leave behind, etc...

deal with it

[The Emperor Fabulous]

But its Kirby Puckett

He had a smile that could make parapalegics dance

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Presence in the clubhouse is the most overrated attribute. How do you measure that? Writers stick it on the guy they like and who is anyone to disagree? Why isn't Kent Hrbek the 'presence in the clubhouse'?

what? you ever played a team sport? presence in the clubhouse is HUUGE.
just watch jose mourinho. i would not be surprised if he gets his guys to win tonite, even thought they are missing two players and have their backs against the wall.
just see how the sox beat the yanks in 2004 alcs. thats clubhouse presence.
clubhouse presense is what separates the winners from the losers on two equally talented clubs. it can even be enough to bring an underdog to victory.

it might not be automatic hall of fame, but it sure does count.

and while we are on this subject, stats arn't everything. in fact, they should matter less. ronaldo has nearly as many goals as pele does in world cup play (he will pass him this year) but no one in their right of mind would say that he is a better than pele.

back to puckett, i think the reasoning why he was inducted was because he was the dominant player over the time what he was playing.