Onion Article Published in a WaPo Column

[Dinner]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Last I heard, we had matriculation, basic diplomas, and a trades track (totally different schools with more classes oriented towards trades).

I don't know about CA.

In California there are only two diplomas. The special ed diploma for the mentally handicapped and the general high school diploma for everyone else. What determines if you get into college and/or how well you are prepared for college is which classes you decide to take. Typically they offer three levels of every subject covering the "I'm a drooling idiots who can't hack it in a standard course" level, the average level, and the advanced level. The advanced level often offers AP classes which students take an Advanced Placement test on the subject at the end of the year which they get college credits for if they score high enough.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

High school is basically a holding pen for people who can't be absorbed into the economy. It would be better for students, teachers, and society as a whole if we acknowledged that and planned accordingly.

[notyoueither]

It's also where people are learning skills needed to be of much value in the economy and society at large.

That's why I'm conflicted. There have to be some standards, but I hesitate to denounce a girl who couldn't master algebra.

[Ramo]

Exactly. Algebra is a fine discipline, and one I enjoyed -- but the fact is, Cohen is right. Most people can live perfectly happy lives without it. Sure, they won't become engineers or architects, but you know what? They weren't going to do that anyway.

Algebra (or math in general) doesn't just help you if you want to be an engineer, architect, etc. but it really does contribute to one's reasoning skills, contrary to Cohen's assertion. It provides a formal logical structure with which one can practice making arguments. Maybe if Cohen paid more attention in his math classes, he wouldn't make such pitiful logical fallacies in his columns (i.e. the idea that a girl who did well in algebra and didn't happen to know certain geography trivia constitutes a proof for his assertion that "writing" rather than math is the highest form of reasoning).

Incidentally, how can a prominent journalist at the WaPo possibly get away with not knowing how to "do percentages?" How can anyone in the modern world get away with that? Seriously. This is just sad.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It's also where people are learning skills needed to be of much value in the economy and society at large.

See, this is where I disagree, though we're mostly on the same page. Western economies are evolving in such a way that the vast majority of workers will either need a college education to do their jobs, or will be able to get by on an 8th-grade education. That's why I think of high school as a kind of holding pen fro a lot of folks.

[notyoueither]

I take it you don't put much stock in people understanding how your political system works, or having a rudimentary knowledge of history.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


See, this is where I disagree, though we're mostly on the same page. Western economies are evolving in such a way that the vast majority of workers will either need a college education to do their jobs, or will be able to get by on an 8th-grade education. That's why I think of high school as a kind of holding pen fro a lot of folks.

HA. Laughable. If it weren't for what I learned in high school, I wouldn't be able to write a coherent paper. Or coherent plays and screenplays, which I write quite well.

A lot of people don't understand the benefit of high school until after.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ramo
Incidentally, how can a prominent journalist at the WaPo possibly get away with not knowing how to "do percentages?" How can anyone in the modern world get away with that? Seriously. This is just sad.

Actually, the simple fact that most people can't do percentages and lots of basic math is how so many companies, like those that operate credit cards, make money.

[loinburger]

I've got mixed feelings about the article (other than the sheer idiocy of bringing up geography). On the one hand I don't think that H.S. diplomas should be watered down any more than they are. On the other hand, every job I've had that required applicants to have a H.S. diploma but not necessarily a college degree (in other words, every job I've had prior to graduating college, because the post-college gravel-shovelling job didn't require a H.S. diploma) included some sort of aptitude test, i.e., for the most part employers already realize that a H.S. diploma basically means that the applicant is generally competent but may be completely incapable of doing "percentages" or whatever.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Elemntary school - is what is says, and should be applicable to everyone...

HS might still be required by the state but it should be split in at least 3 levels, with every school offering at least a class in each level. The levels would be split roughly into bottom 30%, than next 60%, and top 10%... I guess you could jump the levels each year with the worst and the best from different levels exchanging places.

In that way there would be incentive for students to get higher, and a clear pointer for those exiting education as to what has happened. Assesment would be made at the end of the elementary school and that is about it. I am sure this would be abused by teachers and through connections, but the benefits should outweigh the abuse, and you would at the end get much more focused results afterwards. The student (just as well as the author ) in the first post would fall into the bottom level and they would have to make up their basic lack of skills in a certain category with developing somethinging else. I assume as well that there should be further education avilable even to those who are placed in the bottom 30%, but I guess their road to college level education and beyond might be longer than those who are in the "regular" or "best" level classes.

The problem this would solve is "same standard of education" for different students, in the sense that not everyone can be interested in the presentation of subjects as they are taught at the moment and those in the top or the bottom part of the population will be deadly bored with what the education system offers at that stage, thus layer the system to server the student/pupil population better, and those students (both at the bottom and at the top) would advance much more than in the current situation.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Look, here's the basic problem: a certain percentage of the population is going to spend their working lives behind the register at WalMart, or sweeping up WalMart after the place closes, and afterward drinking, screwing, and watching tv. It's not a bad life, in the cosmic scheme of things, but it doesn't require much preparation.

These people don't need a high school education. Algebra, poetry, the causes of the Civil War, the difference between myosis and mytosis -- really, it doesn't matter to them. By 8th grade, intellectually, they've had all the education they need -- and, based on my memories of school, want. They're done.

Yet, as a society, we're committed to not sending 12-year-olds out into the workforce. And that's a good idea, both morally and economically. So we have to do something with them. Hence high school. I'm all for having them there. I'm all for trying to get them to appreciate higher knowledge and the wider world. But penalizing them because we thing our future Burger King grill-jockeys -- and we need Burger King grill-jockeys, dammit -- should know the quadratic equation? That's just cruel.

[MikeH]

What kind of level is this algebra?

I mean we started algebra in year 9.

[Az]

Rufus, I must say I am apalled by your position on this. that's all.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by MikeH
What kind of level is this algebra?

The secretary here at work is getting an associate's degree (a 2-year college degree) in accounting because her job (along with most of the other administrative and support jobs) is probably going to disappear when BRAC finally hits us. To place out of the math courses she had to take an algebra test, which she passed with a score of 30 (she needed a 29), out of either 70 or 100 (she didn't know which). She told me yesterday that most of the problems she got wrong were ones "that were like 'x-two [aka, x-squared] plus two x plus four equals zero'" because she "isn't good with logarithms."

So considering that somebody can get an associate's degree in accounting without knowing factoring or the quadratic equation, it's probably a safe guess that the girl mentioned in this article was failing a ridiculously easy algebra exam.

[Az]

She told me yesterday that most of the problems she got wrong were ones "that were like 'x-two [aka, x-squared] plus two x plus four equals zero'" because she "isn't good with logarithms."

This makes Baby Buddha cry...