Free Will

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to ask, does concept of "free will" necessarily have to be tied in to morality aspect of existance. Why does it not simply mean that you can make a choice, so in that sense "lower level" life forms would fall under that category, as surely they are exercising the ability to chose based on some non arbitrary reasons.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

Yep, from the observation of my own actions and those of others.

@ Kidicious
Note that I am not claiming to make no assumptions here.
I am assuming
- that I exist
- that moral good/bad exists
- that it is possible to reliably discern good and bad.

If you dispute any of those assumptions, then I don't see how you could support the existence of free will.
(If I believe that I do not exist, I can't very well claim to have free will, can I?)

Otoh, while none of those assumptions are incontrovertible, they can be reasonably inferred from human experience.

First, I don't dispute the existence of freewill. I'm just saying that we don't know if we really have freewill, or if it's just another nice idea that we've convinced ourselves of and attached ourselves to. Second, It's fine to assume that you exist. That's safe. But what is the true nature of yourself is the question. Are you simply a part of the universe, or are you distiguishable in the way that you are claiming to be. There are other unanswerable questions as well.

My question is why is freewill so important? It seems like just a perception. Maybe if we found out that we don't have freewill we would adapt to the idea and be fine with it eventually. I suppose we wouldn't really have any real choice anyway.

[aneeshm]

Why , Lorizael , do you look for justification for something that is obvious , that is directly perceived ? I do not understand this attitude .

A consciousness conscious of itself needs no further justification of its own existence . Similarly , it needs no justification for having free will , as the fact that the consciousness has free will can be perceived by itself , about itself . You will have to find the theory to fit the fact of free will , and not try to fit your observations to theory .

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Why , Lorizael , do you look for justification for something that is obvious , that is directly perceived ?

Because perceptions are often wrong when they are a result of our own bias.

[aneeshm]

What conceivable bias can there be when free will is something you perveive since the very beginning ? Freedom is not something that can be faked . Nor has consciousness ever been replicated in a physical system , I believe .

[Lorizael]

The reason that free will and morality are often lumped together is that if someone possessing free will commits a morally wrong act, then they can be blamed for it and held responsible for it. If you cannot reasonably place blame on a person for an action of theirs, because they were coerced in some fashion, then it is generally thought to be wrong to punish them.

Also, in most western philosophical perspectives, the existence of free will is what allows human beings to do good in the universe. All other things simply exist to carry out their natural function, whereas human beings can either do good or bad, and this is up to them.

[Lorizael]

The fact that free will has been there since the very beginning should be proof enough that there is bias. Since the concept seems so integral to our perception of the universe, it hardly seems possible that we would be able to comprehend a universe without it.

Explain color to a blind man. Describe Mozart to the deaf. If you are born with a certain perception of the universe, you most certainly have a bias, and that bias does not necessarily reflect reality.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by aneeshm
What conceivable bias can there be when free will is something you perveive since the very beginning ?

I suppose you percieved it since the beginning. I mean what else are you going to percieve. The point is that your perception isn't necessarily reality. Now you are questioning it, so it matters that you are biased now.

Freedom is not something that can be faked .

No, but you can percieve it when it doesn't exist.

Nor has consciousness ever been replicated in a physical system , I believe .

I don't know what that has to do with it.

[Berzerker]

But all living organisms are granted choices. We just seem to have a greater ability to interpret those choices.

And yet we have repeatedly displayed the ability to choose wrong knowing the alternative is wiser...free will...

[Flip McWho]

How about this. Free will is the ability to choose to do whatever we can do at any point in time. Which we all have. This ability won't be exercised to its extreme all that much because everybody will filter the ability through such things like reaction, emotional feeling and personality. But essentially we all have it.

the existence of free will is what allows human beings to do good in the universe.

That shouldn't really go together. Free will is simply our ability to choose whether to do anything, neutral, good or bad. Good and Bad being based on societies current flavours. And only few actions of your day could be considered good or bad, most would fall in the category of neutral.

[Lorizael]

That's not really a useful definition of free will. I'm sure what you're saying is true in some sense, but it doesn't really have any effect of anything.

[Flip McWho]

Thats because having free will doesn't. It's only determinism that affects things.

[Lorizael]

Yes, but in philosophical discussion, much emphasis is put on free will being something at odds with determinism.

[Flip McWho]

So much for edit

[Flip McWho]

Well it is. Its totally opposite determinism. Free will doesn't affect the action whereas determinism does. That seems fairly at odds to me. Your ability to choose does not affect your ability to do any possible action. Your inability to choose (determinism) does affect your ability to do any possible action.