Free Will

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lorizael
And if you happen to already believe in an amoral, unpredictable, deterministic universe, well, that kind of sucks. Because it definitely means there's absolutely no purpose to your life.

Innit? That's what current science thinks.

Maybe there is some kind of fundamental randomness, but we have no idea how that affects the macroscopic world. Afterall, the deterministic laws still hold sway.

[DaShi]

So it chooses to follow its master.

[Blake]

The universe is an infinite absurdity machine.

[_BuRjaCi_]

No the univers is not absurde by itself nor is man. The absurdity comes frome their mutual existance. It is only absurd because man seeks meaning in it when it's probably just a big random mess.

We are macromolecules with a "few random" eventes thrown into us we don't decide. We are just an over complex propability algorithm. Since modern science belives in alternative universes (in the universes that I and the Earth and the Internet and Pizza exist)I post on this thread in 26% of them , just laugh in 17% or take it seriously in 37%. In 20% I am dead because I decided to eat that old pizza in the refrigirator a few minutes ago .

I think we should free this Will guy and end this silly ( or is it philosophical) discusion.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Free will is as much as a fact as gravitation is. Now just try to incorporate that fact into your philosophical argumentation and you are done the easy way ... the hard way is to find an explanation why the factual "free will" is just a trick on the mind. You could go with free will as some basic axiom as it is so easily observable but it has no root in anything physical or otherwise.

"I can choose therefore I am" (my version)

[BeBMan]

I have free will. You guys just post here because of that

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
You were pre-destined to create this thread.


To answer, hell yes free will exists. Sure the environment and other constraints limit the choices you are presented with, but the range of chioce we all have is still incredibly large. We make thousands of decisions every day. Each decision leads to a thousand reprecussions. Events that can turn out greatly different based on our individual choices.

You have to think about what the "you" is that is making those choices. Are "you" simply the collection of every atom and piece of energy in your body that, because the universe is ordered in a certain way, is "pre-destined" to respond in a certain way?

This explanation does not necessarily mean that you will respond the same way to everything, because different phenomena can appear the same but actually be different, which then provokes a different response from our collection of stuff that creates the illusion of consciousness.

Originally posted by Spiffor
Why do you think people flock to religion?

But seriously, the belief in a deterministic universe doesn't correspond to our scientific knowledge so far. Maybe it is your belief in determinism that is to blame. The logical consequence of determinism is indeed the belief that free will doesn't exist, just like there is no leeway for anything in that universe.

I don't exactly believe in traditional determinism. And my definition of the universe probably isn't quite the same as everyone else's.

Suffice it to say, you would be hard pressed to dissuade me of that particular belief, because it would take a long time for me to explain it, and because I have given it a great deal of thought over the course of my life.

I used to question this assumption of the universe a lot, but then I figured it out - or at least I think have - so I no longer feel the need to question it all the time. Just frequently.

But. Um.

I think I said last night that I didn't know why I was continuing this debate. It wasn't going to get anywhere. Yet you all seem to have continued it, and I seem to have responded once again. I guess we were meant to.

Doesn't matter though. I figured it out. Or at least I think I did. I can't be sure if this is true or if I'm just believing it so that I don't go insane. We'll see.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

no need to be going insane

Let's put it this way - it is obvious that we can all make non deterministic choices, and if for some reason you might have a motivation to think that there is some form of fate guiding everything (decisions), it is most likely based on an incomplete logical system. In principle "no free will" is just a theoretical construct not corresponding to reality from a practical point of view. You can question reality etc... but it can have no practical positive effect apart form some form of escapism.

You have to think about what the "you" is that is making those choices. Are "you" simply the collection of every atom and piece of energy in your body that, because the universe is ordered in a certain way, is "pre-destined" to respond in a certain way?

The "you" requires a belief as the best shot that science can make is just a "collection of atoms" which doesn't necessarily mean this representation is true, as we are far from knowing all about the properties of this universe. It might be appealing to think that way, but there is no definite reason to accept this way of thinking. Thus this part of what makes "you" what it is including the ability to have "free will" is open to wildest interpretations that is only answered within some arbitrary system such as religion.

For me, I'd just say that it falls outside of scope that we can materially test at this point, however it is also a fact of our reality, everything that you do is permeated with it, shouldn't be hard to accept it.

[binTravkin]

Free will (critical Bible interpretation):

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
no need to be going insane

Let's put it this way - it is obvious that we can all make non deterministic choices, and if for some reason you might have a motivation to think that there is some form of fate guiding everything (decisions), it is most likely based on an incomplete logical system. In principle "no free will" is just a theoretical construct not corresponding to reality from a practical point of view. You can question reality etc... but it can have no practical positive effect apart form some form of escapism.

You have to think about what the "you" is that is making those choices. Are "you" simply the collection of every atom and piece of energy in your body that, because the universe is ordered in a certain way, is "pre-destined" to respond in a certain way?

The "you" requires a belief as the best shot that science can make is just a "collection of atoms" which doesn't necessarily mean this representation is true, as we are far from knowing all about the properties of this universe. It might be appealing to think that way, but there is no definite reason to accept this way of thinking. Thus this part of what makes "you" what it is including the ability to have "free will" is open to wildest interpretations that is only answered within some arbitrary system such as religion.

For me, I'd just say that it falls outside of scope that we can materially test at this point, however it is also a fact of our reality, everything that you do is permeated with it, shouldn't be hard to accept it.

You are right that we cannot test free will in any fashion. And because we cannot test it, we cannot assume it to be true. There are many things in this universe that we once simply assumed to be true that have turned out to be blatantly false. Flat earth and all that stuff.

The "obviousness" of a fact does not prove its existence. It merely shows that there is a universal phenomenon that needs explaining.

Also, I do not believe that any sort of fate guides my actions. That is simply a convenient metaphor that I can use to describe a deterministic universe. The logic of my belief does not rest on religion or spirituality or mysticism. It rests on something much colder and less meaningful.

[Kidlicious]

Re: Free Will

Originally posted by Lorizael
Someone please convince me that free will exists. If I can't reconcile this, I'll probably drive myself so completely insane that I come to fervently believe anything just so that I don't have to believe the alternative.

Can I ask you why is it so important for you to believe in free will?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Lorizael


You are right that we cannot test free will in any fashion. And because we cannot test it, we cannot assume it to be true.

What are postulations (or is it postulate in English? damn) for in science then?

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by Kidicious
Can I ask you why is it so important for you to believe in free will?

For his own sanity?

[Lorizael]

Bla bla bla. Free will. It's okay, ladies and gentlemen. No more need for discussion. In all my fabulous genius and stupendous brilliance, I figured it out. I'm a god amongst insects. The next prophet. Someday my beliefs will be known as Lorizaelism. Not to be confused with Raelism. Anyways. It's all over now. I'm okay. It's okay.

[Urban Ranger]

He has gone nutty. Call the funny farm.