I apologize to you on behalf of 'Muslims'

[Pekka]

"I frankly couldn't care less whether some cartoonists feel they should have the right to insult millions of Muslims everywhere. Since when is instigating conflict a right?"

Since when do you decide what is appropriate and means for conflict. Since when do we decide it. Since when does muslims decide it. Who draws the line? You? Me? How about no one?

So if me masturbating would make some religion x folks furious, even if I do it in my own home, should I stop, because they are offended? If it might come to conflict?

Do you really think this is about cartoons anyway?

"Understanding one another's sensitivities and living with them is more important to me than some stupid point some newspapers feel the need to make."

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by polarnomad


I understand the principle, but it isn't worth provoking cultures that do not include this principle in their way of life. Western civilization gains nothing from this showdown. In fact, we have much to lose.

Quite wrong. We have everything to loose if we accept that a religion has the right to dictate what is right and wrong.

@moustafa : despite your nice thoughts with your apology, it doesn't work that way. You cannot excuse on behalf of others. Just keep up your good work calming down the hotheads.

Though, if you are a DL -

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Like, the same Danish paper should refrain from putting a cartoon with Jesus trying to have sex with underage boys. It is their right to do so, but the only effect would be to incite people.

Yes, that is in essence my point.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Quite wrong. We have everything to loose if we accept that a religion has the right to dictate what is right and wrong.

This has become about not bowing to the dictations of religion, but it could have been simply about respecting your neighbors beliefs.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by polarnomad


Yes, that is in essence my point.

Not even the most stupid of those twelve drawings suggest anything near to that.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Pekka
"I frankly couldn't care less whether some cartoonists feel they should have the right to insult millions of Muslims everywhere. Since when is instigating conflict a right?"

Since when do you decide what is appropriate and means for conflict. Since when do we decide it. Since when does muslims decide it. Who draws the line? You? Me? How about no one?

So if me masturbating would make some religion x folks furious, even if I do it in my own home, should I stop, because they are offended? If it might come to conflict?

Do you really think this is about cartoons anyway?

"Understanding one another's sensitivities and living with them is more important to me than some stupid point some newspapers feel the need to make."

Deciding when to show restraint is not easy. The line needs to be drawn by oneself. But I can see that you are not interested in discussing this, so I will move on.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Az

Dude... he isn't saying that. Polarnomad is saying (if I understand him correctly) that everyone should have the right to insult whoever they wish, but sometimes we should have a bit more consideration for others and try not to deliberately provoke them.

It wasn't a deliberate provocation - it was a series of cartoons that were precisely on the topic of self-censorship by cartoonist when discussing islam - i.e. a lack of an honest debate on the issue. It was published with that specific intent. If that's a provocation, EVERYTHING is a provocation.

Come on... the one with Muhammed with a bomb on his head.. if that wasn't a provocation, then nothing is.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Not even the most stupid of those twelve drawings suggest anything near to that.

Perhaps if you were a Muslim they might.

[Az]

Originally posted by polarnomad


Have you ever made someone see the error of their ways by insulting them?

Plenty of times, actually.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Az

This is ****ing ridiculous. Compare this: were the first female suffragists instigating conflict, when wanting to have rights, against a patriarchal, and sometimes, quite militant public? of course not.

Why should I compare women calling out for their right to have a say in the country in which they live with some pseudo-intellectuals wanting the right to express themselves without thought for consequences.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by polarnomad


This has become about not bowing to the dictations of religion, but it could have been simply about respecting your neighbors beliefs.

Since when has critisim of a religion been a critisim of a persons belief ? If that was the case, then every person on this planet has been offended so many times that everybody has the right to declare "jihad" against whomever that for the moment is in reachable distance.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Az


Plenty of times, actually.

Of course you have...

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Since when has critisim of a religion been a critisim of a persons belief ? If that was the case, then every person on this planet has been offended so many times that everybody has the right to declare "jihad" against whomever that for the moment is in reachable distance.

A couple of the cartoons cannot be described as criticism, but outright provocation.

Let's get one thing clear, I am NOT apologizing for the violence that has ensued in response. I am questioning the actual merits of this test of the limits of free speech.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by polarnomad


Perhaps if you were a Muslim they might.

Try read this :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4680948.stm

[Grandpa Troll]

On apologizing for a group you are unequally yoked with

I believe we should feel the spectrum of emotions when we belong to a group but are not part of the so called extremists

I am a Christian, I put up with insults for my beliefs, I am not perfect, I dont thump people, simply share God's word, often fall short of where God would have me be.

I listen to insults that people really shouldnt use.

I dont believe in Terrorism but know full well we as an American Govt often sanction things that are possibly considered close in action.

I love Apolyton but dont agree with all posters yet love the people here, I dont "Hate" any individual poster, not even Giancarlo who for some reason enjoys laying siege to me

For real, I think it is very insensitive to people to mock one another and provoke hate, I am on occassion guilty of "walking the line" in the very gray area, and for this I do apologize.

As an American white male, I feel guilt when an ethnic group is targeted soley for their skin color or demographic makeup

I often think of just how blessed I am, but on the other hand, I feel disgust when someone tells me because I am a white male I have been given everything, when in fact I been on the short end of the stick far too many times

I dont like people who allways have a "GIMME,GIMME,GIMME" attitude..

I think our welfare and social helps system has actually hindered folks by making it too difficult for them on occassion to climb out of the hole they have gotten into bu their own decision or by circumstances beyond their control


Why do I feel remorse and pain if I Bruce K. Cronkite had -zero- to actually do with it?

I shall tell you it is because I am sorry anyone has to go through pain and anguish and suffering of any kind.

This is just my $0.02 worth good folks

I am

Grandpa Troll