I apologize to you on behalf of 'Muslims'

[Berzerker]

I cant respect any religion that needs to use violence to express outrage at unflattering depictions...kinda proves the unflattering depictions were earned.

[Thorn]

THEY WILL DESTROY WESTERN CIVILIZATION AND THAT MY FRIEND I WILL NOT TOLERATE! We did not build up our grand societies 1000s of years to be erased by a bunch of heathens.

[Elok]

...

I can't even tell if you're being facetious when you say that. "Heathens," for pete's sake. Either I congratulate you on your improved trolling skills, or I urge you to return to complaining about your life and Nazi ghosts and suchlike. Depending on what you were doing.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Thorn
THEY WILL DESTROY WESTERN CIVILIZATION AND THAT MY FRIEND I WILL NOT TOLERATE!

QFT

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I cant respect any religion that needs to use violence to express outrage at unflattering depictions...kinda proves the unflattering depictions were earned.

Do crazies normally represent the 'religion' to you? Do you think Jerry Falwell when you think of Christianity?

[Az]

Well, how do you propose to stop them, Az? Just withdraw all Western embassies from the countries in question, refuse to allow any traffic between their countries and ours? Anything less and you'll continue to expose yourself to danger from terrorist strikes, and that solution will itself provoke a war anyway. You can't pick the monsters out from the midst of the sane ones, you can't keep the lot of them from interacting with you, and you can't just wipe them all out. Well, you can, but not without trampling all over the values you ostensibly defend and causing ten times the terrorism problem you started with.

"Right" or not, you can't save yourself by direct confrontation. I'm just saying, this minuteman imagery you guys are pulling out is laughable. The American Revolution had the whole Atlantic Ocean between the freedom fighters and their enemies, and they were fighting a relatively conventional war too.

They also had more of a reason for fighting; how many taxes and unfair laws do the governments of Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. impose on you? None. They just have a bunch of citizens that are turning unruly, and they don't have the political influence or the power to suppress those citizens' resentment. Trying to do so becomes more and more precarious by the day. Egypt and Indonesia have both expressed acceptance of our/your apologies, but they note that their people are still upset, and there's not much they can do about it.

Trying to reason with them ("them" being the sane contingent of Muslims and their governments, not bin Laden and company) is the only remaining (workable) option. I don't think it's impossible; the average member of the Muslim world is human, just like us, and probably just wants a fair shot at life and to be treated with respect. Due to a combination of factors none of us really understands, including but not limited to manipulative leaders and media, poverty and corruption, bad blood between our cultures (started by the CRUSADES, Thorn), and good ol' crazy George W. Bush, some of them are convinced, like us, that there's no way out but to fight.

Their attitude is, at bottom, not much more irrational than that of the jingoistic Republicans here in the USA. You're approaching the attitude yourselves, it seems. Just keep demonizing them, convince yourselves that there is nothing for it but to beat them into submission. And try to forget that such things are easier said than done.

You're knocking down strawmen like there is no tomorrow.

I am certain that the average person in the muslim world is as capable as anywhere else. I am also not saying that we shouldn't reason with the sane, sober muslims. What I am saying is that those those people who burn flags and then embassies because of the cartoon aren't ****ing sane. And that people around them, if they think that this is wrong, should come out and say it. And if the governments that have these insane people in their borders don't do anything when western embassies, and possibly people are attacked, don't do anything about it, the smart thing to do is to pull out the embassies. If that is enough to cause war, then maybe people over there, some 100 miles away from me, aren't that ****ing sane, in general.

What I certainly WOULDN'T do, is make any concessions to the way my government works with regards to such issues as personal freedom, and freedom of speech. And if we are not talking about any change of laws, then all of this is moot, a question of personal taste, chocolate or strawberry, gay sex or golden showers, etc. etc.

[Thorn]

Jerry Falwell isn't strapping dynomite to his chest, beheading people, (or telling others to do these things), YET!

[Elok]

Az, just by way of example, I do not agree with Falwell one bit. I despise him. But he has some popular support; some people who agree with him completely, some people who just side with him because they think it's him or atheism, and some people who don't appreciate the kinds of problem he causes. It takes a lot to get the whole country united in expunging a menace.

I imagine, based on what I've read, that the situation in the Muslim world is roughly as follows: The vast majority of them do not approve of terrorism. However, the vast majority of them also do not approve of the West in general. They wouldn't bomb us themselves, but their general impression of us is of a bunch of fat, lazy creeps who profit from their weakness. So they see no reason to make any special effort to stop the bombings and madness. We screwed them over by (pick one or more: the crusades, siding with Israel, selling weapons to Iran, any other longstanding grudge), and now we're reaping what we've sown, and so on.

They don't side with the nuts, but cracking down on the nuts seems like siding with the West, which is an extremely distasteful idea--plus it puts them at risk of retaliation from said nuts, which they aren't willing to hazard for the sake of some stupid greedy westerners. And any provocation from us pushes the inactive, disgruntled fringe of that majority into temporary flareups of violence, followed by a return to sullen indifference. Until such time as we've convinced them that we're worth sticking up for, they're hardly going to stick up for us. "We" have screwed them before. It's not that different from your own attitude, really. They're waiting for a show of good faith from the other side, but each side wants more than the other is willing to give as a sign. So nothing happens.

I agree that our argument is moot. It would be moot even if I were talking about legal restrictions, since you and I are both powerless philosophers on the internet. Having said my bit, I'm just sticking around to try and stem this perverse warhawk sentiment you guys have got going on. This is insane.

Speaking of which, Odin: If you're going to go around endorsing a call for massive intercultural war, you could at least remove the MLK quote from your sig. That's, quite frankly, indecent.

[Thorn]

Elok YOU TRAITOR!!! SEND HIM TO THE GALLOWS!!!

[StarLightDeath]

Do crazies normally represent the 'religion' to you? Do you think Jerry Falwell when you think of Christianity?

I know what you mean man. I heard recently they intercepted chatter between Christian extremists and Al jazeera just aired a tape of Jerry Falwell threatening more terrorist attacks. Somebody has to stop the Christian fanatics from carrying out their crazed agenda on the civilized world.

[VetLegion]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think Muslims are required to refer to Allah with some adjective, forgot which. Somewhat like some people don't write God but G-d. Same with Mohammad, you have to follow it up with "holy prophet" or something. It's not an option. So I think that original poster is not in fact Muslim. It's not that relevant though (and I may be wrong).

[VetLegion]

Anyway, I think I know a cool way to kill this affair.

Stop covering it

The Western media should completely and totally boycot reports from Middle East and other places about this. So they capture EU embassy and shout? Who cares. You don't print it on front pages of newspapers, you don't show the clips on CNN, in fact, you don't even mention it. Politicians don't talk about it... it isn't mentioned anywhere - it isn't happening.

Yeah, I know it's impossible, but it would send a powerful message.

[Thorn]

Yeah, I know it's impossible, but it would send a powerful message.

Yeah that you are weak euro trash, and america has lost its balls, and are both ripe for the picking.

[VetLegion]

Not really. More like "So, you're worked up about something? We don't care. End of story, talk to the hand."

[Elok]

Well, I'm 90% certain you're just trolling now, after the "gallows" comment, but I don't think the fanatical Muslim fringe is going to be invading us anytime soon either. They can do an incredible job with guerrilla tactics, Kalashnikovs, and makeshift explosives, but somehow I can't see them storming the beaches that way. Or hijacking enough planes to carry in an effective force...