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This could get fun ...
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Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok -
It's pretty clear that the Palestinian people, in their wisdom (
) want Hamas. A government without Hamas would have zero legitimacy. But since Hamas is a bunch of thugs (as opposed to Fatah??), we're going to shut off aid to the democratically elected government of Palestine. Brilliant. Of COURSE it's our right to do so. It's just stupid.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Israeli sources confirm Hamas getting an absolute majority. Official results in 4 hours.
This will get pretty bad. The USA and the EU consider Hamas a terrorist organization. The USA won't acknowledge the new government, the EU will either change its opinion (
) or also refuse to acknowledge the government. Hamas will see itself as not having to respond to any other countries, and will officially and freely wage war vs. Israel. Israel, likeweise refusing to deal with Hamas, will answer with increased military operations - this could get worse than it has ever been in the area.
Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking ManComment
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Sometimes the best way to force an immature troublemaker to get his act together is to promote him to a responsable position. Don't know if this works on scale of organizations though.Comment
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Not when the goal of the organization has long been to actually gain such a position to make it much easier to do as they want.Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking ManComment
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Paraphrasing Flip Wilson: "Here come da tanks! Here come da tanks! Here come da tanks!""I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!Comment
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Did Fatah beat Dewey at least?
"I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie AllenComment
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What, exactly, did the US, EU, Israel, et al. expect?? Is this somehow a surprising result??
WTF is the point of pushing for elections if you cannot stomach the likely result??
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I am not surprised. The public in Israel, however, is, because they've been lied to, as a part of the disengagement, etc.
I don't really care about this. If Hamas wants to play hardball, they're welcome to try - but I do hope that the palestinian public isn't surprised by the repricussions of electing *******s into office.Comment
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[q=Arrian]WTF is the point of pushing for elections if you cannot stomach the likely result?? [/q]
EXACTLY!
My point all along is why push democracy when this was a possibility! Stick with the dictatorship and at least you get the people you want running things! Push democracy and this type of crap is going to happen!
Argh.. morons!“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)Comment
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Ah - democracy in action. Nothing better in this world than free and fair elections.
Bush has a news conference at 10:15am. Should be enlightening."Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - GuynemerComment
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Stick with dictatorship and the people in question never take responsibility for their actions, and blame you and your "imperialism" for whatever happens.Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[q=Arrian]WTF is the point of pushing for elections if you cannot stomach the likely result?? [/q]
EXACTLY!
My point all along is why push democracy when this was a possibility! Stick with the dictatorship and at least you get the people you want running things! Push democracy and this type of crap is going to happen!
Argh.. morons!
Abu Mazen and Abu Qureia never cracked down on Hamas, claiming they werent strong enough. And as Ramo has pointed out, the Fatah old guard WERE corrupt and were misruling the PA. As Az points out, they were NOT the good guys.
That said, a new Hamas govt of the PA must be held responsible for ITS words and actions."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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who said we cant stomach it? We CAN stomach it, the sky isnt falling, I just insist we maintain our policy of financial and diplomatic boycott of Hamas till they moderate their policies. Some people seem to forget that we also diplomatically boycotted the PLO till they agreed to recognize Israel. The sky didnt fall then, either.Originally posted by Arrian
What, exactly, did the US, EU, Israel, et al. expect?? Is this somehow a surprising result??
WTF is the point of pushing for elections if you cannot stomach the likely result??
-Arrian"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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So the answer is to push democratic elections, knowing there was a good chance the 'wrong guys' win and then you'll cut off aid? How in the WORLD is that a better result?!Originally posted by lord of the mark
Stick with dictatorship and the people in question never take responsibility for their actions, and blame you and your "imperialism" for whatever happens.
Abu Mazen and Abu Qureia never cracked down on Hamas, claiming they werent strong enough. And as Ramo has pointed out, the Fatah old guard WERE corrupt and were misruling the PA. As Az points out, they were NOT the good guys.
That said, a new Hamas govt of the PA must be held responsible for ITS words and actions.
This isn't some backwater area where no one gives a damn. This is a very important piece of real estate and by doing this, we may be leading the Palestians to reach for more extreme measures (as GePap pointed out... if aid from the US is gone, they'll get it from somewhere else).“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)Comment
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We arent going to weaken Hamas electorally, at least not in the short run. Hopefully there own performance in office will do that. What we WILL do is be consistent in our opposition to funding terrorists who obstruct the peace process, and who dont recognise Israel. They may change their minds. If they dont, at least we've saved some money. Its not like there arent other places to spend it.Originally posted by GePap
If the US and EU cut aid, what happens?
Do Palestinians, thrown into further poverty, decide to follow the money and do as the west wants?
Or do they turn more and more to Islamic charities, the only organizations capable of meeting their social needs given the collapse in society?
AFAICT, Hamas charitable wing is already spending as much as it can.
Yeah, cutting the Palestinian government from aid, while the Palestinian economy continues in a stranglehold will really weaken the Islamists...."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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