Palestinian Elections

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Right now they seem to be quite nervous about taking power without Fatah. I dont think theyre nearly as confident as you make out. Of course im following actual news stories from the region, and not just having an arguement about neoconservatism.

What is Hamas 'nervous' about aside from having their power undermined by the strong minority which has control over most of the agencies in the country? I don't think they doing it to appease the US or Isreal.

[Arrian]

LotM, do you read Arab or Palestinian publications as well, or just the Israeli papers?

A palestinian viewpoint (right or wrong):

Hamas presented a new platform significantly moderated (accepts negotiations with Israel and hence recognizes Israel). A Christian Palestinian candidate is supported by Hamas. The secular Fatah lost much support for two reasons: 1) it was put in the untenable position keeping an occupied population docile while colonization of their land continued, and 2) Fatah included many corrupt leaders who complied to advance their personal interests ahead of the interests of their people.

From the Palestine Chronicle (not a source I tend to use - I tend to read the Lebanon Star).

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Like I was saying, there is a de facto recognition of Isreal (accepting negotiations) even though there is no official recognition.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
LotM, do you read Arab or Palestinian publications as well, or just the Israeli papers?

A palestinian viewpoint (right or wrong):



From the Palestine Chronicle (not a source I tend to use - I tend to read the Lebanon Star).

-Arrian

I dont usually read the Pal papers - you must recall i read the Israeli papers not only for news of the "conflict" but for news of Israel affairs, jewish affairs, etc which are also interest to me. Some Haaretz columnists are quite sympathetic to the Pals, and Haaretz as well as the JP quote Pal spokesmen extensively. I also read and listen to the BBC and NPR, which are hardly unsympathetic to the Pals, and even to Hamas.

[Az]

Like I was saying, there is a de facto recognition of Isreal (accepting negotiations) even though there is no official recognition.

I think that I could accept that **** in 48'.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
LotM, do you read Arab or Palestinian publications as well, or just the Israeli papers?

A palestinian viewpoint (right or wrong):



From the Palestine Chronicle (not a source I tend to use - I tend to read the Lebanon Star).

-Arrian

The PLO in the 1980s said they wanted to talk to Israel - in order to get concessions to the PLO - while refusing to recognize Israel. The US wisely refused that, which forced the PLO to agree to recognize Israel in order to return to the territories and get some control. And aid. And international recognition.

Hamas must undergo the same process. Agreeing to talk to Israel, to get concessions, while keeping the threat to destroy Israel, is not enough to get aid and recognition.

[Arrian]

Imran,

De facto recognition... how big of them. I've come around on this: if they want our aid money, they have to go past that. Again, recognizing Israel's fundamental right to exist is not an unreasonable condition for aid.

-Arrian

p.s. LotM - just asking.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Like I was saying, there is a de facto recognition of Isreal (accepting negotiations) even though there is no official recognition.

Fine - lets have defacto recognition of Hamas (lets not attack them, and lets talk to them quiety about their recognition of Israel) Meanwhile lets not give them any official recognition, or aid.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Arrian
Imran,

De facto recognition... how big of them. I've come around on this: if they want our aid money, they have to go past that. Again, recognizing Israel's fundamental right to exist is not an unreasonable condition for aid.

-Arrian

p.s. LotM - just asking.

And then you just plunge Palestine into extremism again. Hell, we screwed it up, by pushing so hard for democracy. If we say, well you are screwed now, it doesn't make anything better, does it? The US will just be marginalized in the ME debate. Hell, the Palestinians may just turn to more sympathetical European countries as mediator and tell the US to **** off in the future.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Imran,

De facto recognition... how big of them. I've come around on this: if they want our aid money, they have to go past that. Again, recognizing Israel's fundamental right to exist is not an unreasonable condition for aid.

-Arrian

p.s. LotM - just asking.

an interesting source that gives both Israeli and Pal viewpoints is www.Bitterlemons.org. Every week or so they raise one particular question, and get responses from 2 pals and 2 israelis (usually a hardliner and softliner on each side) This not only shows the different positions, but also shows that the sides are not homogeneous.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The US will just be marginalized in the ME debate. Hell, the Palestinians may just turn to more sympathetical European countries as mediator and tell the US to **** off in the future.

actually reports are we're coordinating our position with the Euros.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
...If we say, well you are screwed now, it doesn't make anything better, does it? The US will just be marginalized in the ME debate. Hell, the Palestinians may just turn to more sympathetical European countries as mediator and tell the US to **** off in the future.

Which, honestly, may be better for all concerned. Seriously. I'm often shocked at the degree to which the Pals seem to look to the US to give them what they want. Erm, no, it doesn't work that way. They have to deal with ISRAEL. Since the US is not considered a neutral party by the Pals, how effective can we really be as a mediator, anyway? I've often wondered about that.

Anyway, I seriously doubt we'll be "marginalized" in the ME debate. We should be so lucky.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

"Foreign Leaders Shocked at Hamas Win By JOHN LEICESTER, Associated Press Writer
33 minutes ago



PARIS - World leaders, uneasy at the prospect of a Hamas-led Palestinian government, immediately exerted pressure on the Islamic militants Thursday to recognize Israel and renounce violence as a precondition for support.

.......


European governments and the United States presented a united front — insisting that Hamas renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist — and planned meetings to coordinate their response. A senior European Parliament lawmaker, Elmar Brok, warned of a possible cutoff of European Union aid for the Palestinians if Hamas does not change its policies.

..........


"The whole of the international community has the responsibility to accept the outcome of any fair and democratic election," said British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. "But in this case Hamas has a clear responsibility to understand that with democracy goes a rejection of violence."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair's spokesman was blunt: "We can only do business with people who renounce terrorism," he said.

Concern crossed political divides, with traditional supporters of the Palestinian cause — such as Italy's center-left opposition — among those expressing concern. The Italian government said Hamas' victory could indefinitely postpone any chance of Israeli-Palestinian peace and make the creation of a Palestinian state more difficult.

"It is a very, very, very bad result," Italian news agencies quoted Premier Silvio Berlusconi as saying.

...............

EU foreign ministers meeting Monday also will discuss the 25-nation bloc's response.

................

Japan hailed the successful holding of elections as "an important step toward building a democratic Palestinian state" but also said it expects the Palestinian Authority "to control the extremists" and work for peace.

Israel, the United States and the European Union have said they would not deal with a government led by Hamas, which has carried out dozens of suicide bombings, seeks Israel's destruction and has said that it opposes peace talks and will not disarm.

Sweden's foreign minister, Laila Freivalds, said Hamas' showing was "a protest against those in power who have not done enough, a reaction to the incapacity to lead the political process forward."

But she said the 25-nation EU cannot cooperate with Hamas unless it changes its policies. In France, the prime minister said renouncing violence, accepting progress toward peace, recognizing Israel and the Oslo peace accords were "indispensable" conditions for working with "a Palestinian government of any kind."

"These (election) results may confront us with an entirely new situation which will need to be analyzed," said EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana.

[Adam Smith]

Hamas official Mushir al-Masri warned that Hamas would not hold peace talks with Israel.

"Negotiations with Israel is not on our agenda," he said.

"Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either now."

But another official, Mahmoud Zahar, told AP news agency that Hamas would maintain February's ceasefire if Israel did the same.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4650788.stm

Diplomats may note the last word of the second quote?

[Odin]

Hamas won?

This is gonna be interesting.