8th grader with pellet gun shot and killed by SWAT team in School.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Even if most of you are turned all against the little one now, I say: poor kid.

Way to misread our comments.

[Berzerker]

Okay okay, I'll play devil's advocate a bit even though I cant really fault them too much given the difference between 20/20 hindsight and real time I coulda woulda shoulda. I agree with PH, if you want to commit suicide dont involve others damnit. Your troubles aren't an excuse to create troubles for others and this will effect alot of people including the cop(s).

But I'm getting a little tired of these situations where people are killed by a body shot when its quite possible a shot to the leg would end the situation. Of course its tough to think when you've been trained a certain way so my gripe is more with the training. I understand cops are trained to aim for the center of mass (torso shots) and this probably was a result of wounded suspects who went on to harm people after a limb shot or bullets going by or thru the suspect and hitting bystanders, but its almost like cops dont receive training on aiming for the limbs and manipulating suspects into a clear shot and some of these cases look like the suspects were basically up against a wall so to speak. The guy in NO was surrounded by cops and a wall and all he had was a knife. You couldn't shoot him in the leg? The guy in the airport may have been just a guy in a hurry. I never did hear if the claims about a bomb stood up.

The kid didn't shoot anyone in what, an hour? Even when he had the chance he didn't shoot anyone. He didn't even pull the gun until after a fellow student saw it and tried to take it away. Now, we're told he was suicidal. Okay, but was he really this big threat? According to the story he was challenged to a fight in the coming days. So was he armed to commit suicide via cop or was he armed for protection against some bully? He apparently painted the end to hide it was a pellet gun. Was this to fool the cops or the bully? He knew the bully would be at school, not the cops. The only reason it still looks like suicide via cop is that he didn't surrender to the cops, someone armed for protection against a bully would likely hand the gun over and start explaining.
But who knows what he was thinking, we need more info about how the shooting occured. Was he cornered in a bathroom? If so, whats the rush? Seems like a good time to re-assess the situation and call his folks or get a friend there to talk to him.

I dont like how law enforcement was militarised the past 2-3 decades. Cops have become much more proficient at killing people but it seems training has taken away from being human. Cops that follow training dont get punished, cops who go on instinct do.

[Grandpa Troll]

Umm..as a Former Federal Officer, I was never trained to "Wing" or even "Warn" shot, but when deadly force was needed, use, not try to be a John Wayne/Auddie Murphy or Clint Eastwood

I dont say you have to Kill everytime, but if you try to wound in a limb and that person uses their weapon to off an innocent, what was the reasoning for shooting in the first place?

Shooting is usually a last choice but a necessary one

[Berzerker]

I was never trained to "Wing" or even "Warn" shot

Why? Dont you think it unusual a man armed with a knife against a wall and surrounded by a couple dozen cops wouldn't be a good situation for a winging? A kid trapped in a bathroom? I think y'all swung too far toward the shoot to kill mentality.

[KrazyHorse]

It's not "shoot to kill". It's "shoot to disable". Hitting somebody in a limb is no guarantee that they will stop, nor is it easy to hit somebody in a limb when they are moving.

a) They aim for center-mass

b) If the guy is merely against the wall brandishing a knife they will not shoot him. They might taser or pepper spray him, but until he makes a threatening move toward an officer or civilian with his knife he will not be shot.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Why? Dont you think it unusual a man armed with a knife against a wall and surrounded by a couple dozen cops wouldn't be a good situation for a winging? A kid trapped in a bathroom? I think y'all swung too far toward the shoot to kill mentality.

Those are differing shooting scenario then what happened here:

I have been through several course and The exampl of the knife is he can shoot you with the knife so if he is from a distance against a wall, time is your option

The kid trapped in a bathroom, is again, not a problem as long as doesnt have a firearm or a hostage and a weapon

"swung too far to the shoot mentality" is dictated by the person doing the actions, not the officer. A properly trained officer with the right motivations should not randomly shoot to kill, only as a last resort.

[Grandpa Troll]

and my other membership

[Berzerker]

It's not "shoot to kill". It's "shoot to disable".

I suspect more die than are disabled but yes, its officially "shoot to disable" but the effect is shooting to kill.

Hitting somebody in a limb is no guarantee that they will stop, nor is it easy to hit somebody in a limb when they are moving.

It appears all 3 of these people weren't running and did not need to be stopped in that way. Please read my post, I already mentioned the reasons why body shots became popular.

[Thorn]

UPDATE:

Lawyer: Teen Shot by Police Is Brain Dead

By KELLI KENNEDY, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago

The parents of a 15-year-old boy accused of terrorizing classmates with a pistol warned authorities the weapon likely was fake before police shot him in a middle school bathroom, a family attorney said Saturday.

Christopher Penley, of Winter Springs, was accused of pulling a pellet gun in a classroom Friday and pointing it at other students. When he later raised the weapon at a deputy, a SWAT team member shot him, authorities said. Penley was clinically brain dead Saturday, said family attorney Mark Nation.

"His organs are in the process of being harvested," Nation said.

Officers who had responded to the 1,100-student school in suburban Orlando believed the gun was a Beretta 9mm, and didn't learn until after the shooting that it was a pellet gun.

The boy's parents, Ralph and Donna Penley, were in contact with authorities during the incident and told them they believed Penley did not have a real gun, Nation said. Ralph Penley went to the school to attempt to talk his son out of the situation.

"When he got to the school, they would not let him in and he was later told Christopher had been shot," Nation said.

Friends and investigators say Penley was bullied and emotionally distraught, and went to school that day expecting to die.

Patrick Lafferty, a 15-year-old neighbor who has known Penley about six years, said he wasn't surprised by what happened. He said Penley was a loner who "told me he wanted to kill himself dozens of times."

"He would put his headphones on and walk up and down the street and he would work out a lot," preferring to keep to himself, Lafferty said.

Kelly Swofford, a family spokeswoman and neighbor of the boy's parents, said the boy had run away from home several times. Her 11-year-old son, Jeffery Swofford, said Penley had said he had something planned.

"He said `I hope I die today because I don't really like my life,'" Jeffery Swofford said.

Maurice Cotey, 13, told WKMG-TV in Orlando that he struggled with Penley over the gun after everyone else left the classroom.

"He got me towards the closet door, he turned me around, and ... started to point the gun at me, so I started to grab for it. And he pulled it away and then I grabbed for it one more time, .... twisted it and I pointed it at him."

Cotey said after he put the gun to Penley's legs, the gunman kicked him into the closet, where the two scuffled further, before Penley ran out of the classroom.

The school went into lockdown.

From there, Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger said, Penley traversed the Milwee Middle School campus before ending up in a bathroom. By then, more than 40 officers, including SWAT and negotiators, were on scene. He refused to drop the firearm, Eslinger said, and was shot after pointing it at a SWAT deputy.

Jeffery Swofford said Penley had been in a disagreement with someone, allegedly over a girl. There was going to be a fight Friday, he said. "I heard a rumor that he had a BB gun, but I didn't think he really had one," he added.

SO WAIT LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT!!? He ran into a bathroom, his parents were there, they told police that they didn't think he had a real gun, and then they still shot him rather then trying to negotiate with him.

Turns out this whole thing was an argument about a girl not a suicide attemp, SEE I KNEW THE PRESS ****ED THIS ONE UP.

He was going to defend himself from a bully!!! WTF is wrong with the police!!!

[Grandpa Troll]

Just because someone says it isnt real doesnt mean it isnt.....

Maybe the parents knew he had a "fake" and told the police...

Question is what kind of parent would let their kids carry a 9mm look alike?

He is 15 and it can only lead to a bad situation such as this

Also what is to say the kid didnt get his hands on a real 9mm?

This is still a shame someone had to die

Very sad

[KrazyHorse]

Thorn

You're an idiot.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Berzerker
It appears all 3 of these people weren't running and did not need to be stopped in that way. Please read my post, I already mentioned the reasons why body shots became popular.

a) "Stopped" doesn't necessarily mean "stopped from running". It could mean "stopped in an attack".

b) Your 3 examples are all hearsay, filtered through god knows how many sources. Official police procedures are not to shoot a man standing against a wall and brandishing a knife (so long as he is not within threatening range of others). Did he make a move toward an officer? Did an officer **** up and fire too soon? Who knows. I'm certainly not going to figure it out by reading the news according to Berzerker.

[Berzerker]

Thats just a possibility, this still sounds like suicide via cop. You gotta be a little nuts to be pointing a gun at cops so I dont think he was being rational and his behavior prior to their arrival was whacky. IF I had ever brought a gun to school I would have handed it over to the teacher when discovered, not run around for an hour scaring the hell out of people.

[Grandpa Troll]

Thorn, if your reasoning or baiting is normal, I have an ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION

Either you are a real Troll or maybe I shall defer to KH and his post #26above

[Thorn]

Yeah, well you think about it, really hard, do you really want to hand it over to police, I don't think he was suicidal to begin with but the prospects of punishment by our good ol' puritan society, had him scared ****less, I would have done the same thing in the situation. **** like having 5 felonies and going to prison for like the rest of your life. Possibly even being considered a terrorist under homeland security procedures. Nah, I'd rather die.