8th grader with pellet gun shot and killed by SWAT team in School.

[Tim_Augustus]

Originally posted by Sava


and to this kid... if he was suicidal, he should have just slit his wrists in a bathtub or overdosed or something... if you are going to kill yourself, DONT BRING OTHER PEOPLE INTO THE SITUATION

Unless you are a complete hermit with no personal relationships whatsoever, other people are always involved in the situation...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I would guess that a pellet would probably have to strike a full-grown man in a vulnerable spot (temple, eye, throat or heart) in order to kill him.

There were a couple deaths here that involved people being shot in the leg. One had an artery punctured, the other was killed by a blood clot.

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, didn't think of the femoral artery...

[Dr Strangelove]

If you hit the femoral artery high in the thigh, near where the leg joins the abdomen bleeding is very hard to control. The artery enters the leg passing under the inguinal ligament. If you cut the artery within an inch or two of the inguinal ligament it may contract to a point under the ligament. In such a situation bleeding can only be stopped by making an incision in the abdomenal wall above the ligament and ligating the artery within the abdomenal cavity, That means you have to get the victim to the operating room before he bleeds out.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
If you hit the femoral artery high in the thigh, near where the leg joins the abdomen bleeding is very hard to control. The artery enters the leg passing under the inguinal ligament. If you cut the artery within an inch or two of the inguinal ligament it may contract to a point under the ligament. In such a situation bleeding can only be stopped by making an incision in the abdomenal wall above the ligament and ligating the artery within the abdomenal cavity, That means you have to get the victim to the operating room before he bleeds out.

Dr Strangelove (whom received one of my coveted votes for the HOF ) with this information in mind, "winging" a suspect in the leg with a much more powerful weapon than a pellet gun could have disastrous results?

Im just sharing since it was suggested to shoot someone in the limb versus a body shot.

I remember back in the 1970's when I was a Federal Officer, T V Shows showed Police Officers firing warning shots in the air

Like what goes up must come down.

Gramps

[Mrs. Tuberski]

ok let me say this, For one the guy who shot him was he SWAT or not, even if not he chased this kid and put him slef in the lineof fire. Most smart cops and swat guys dont ever put themselves in a positon to be an opne target. This says to me the cop kinda knew the gun was fake but has a hestancy. second of all why was the cop in the same room when they had negotiators on the scene that could have been close, out of the line of fire to talk this kid out of a bad situation?? That is their job is it not?? The death of this child is a tragedy initsself not just to the kid but the the cop that shot him.. If you ask me the ball was dropped here.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
ok let me say this, For one the guy who shot him was he SWAT or not, even if not he chased this kid and put him slef in the lineof fire. Most smart cops and swat guys dont ever put themselves in a positon to be an opne target. This says to me the cop kinda knew the gun was fake but has a hestancy. second of all why was the cop in the same room when they had negotiators on the scene that could have been close, out of the line of fire to talk this kid out of a bad situation?? That is their job is it not?? The death of this child is a tragedy initsself not just to the kid but the the cop that shot him.. If you ask me the ball was dropped here.

But it is the job of SWAT to sweep and secure, to stablize

What many people may be missing is that the weapon "looked" real and he stated he wanted to die

No one knew going in, only on "Monday Morning Quarterback" that the weapon was "Fake"

It Could Have Been a real one!

People say they told the police it was a fake

If so many "knew" it was a Fake why did anyone let it be taken with him to school?

As for being in Line, a SWAT Officer and a s for that, any officer doing sweeps has to be in some form or shape "in Line"

A Shame yes, but it is the Officer who was put in the Line, due to the "Actions" taken by this young man.

I would ask this:

What if someone out here is now readiung this, wants to die, kill a Cop or whatever, has a similiar weapon, tells his friends to tell everyone once he is surround scream out he has a fake, then this kid charges and raises the weapon and shoots an innocent, even a Law Man sworn to defend, what would be the opinion then?

I was a law man in the 70's. I was on 48 hours off 48 hours. We changed Cruisers around 3 P M, well we were playing Basketball, I went to fuel the cruiser up 1/2 mile from the court, when I got a call, I was in my b-ball shorts and webgear in trunk, right in front of the residence where a woman was being beaten by here drunk brother and drunk cousin. I turned into the driveway and before I could clear the cruiser Jake was on me and I was dead in the water.This waswhen I had a weapon in my face, 1979 when on Duty aboard Indian Township, a Federal Indian Reservation, home of the Passamaduoddy Indian Reservation at Peter Dana Pointe. I was called to a domestic violence and faced a semi-automatic weapon, 3 inches from my face. The man who did it was a felon who had a History of violence, I took him down and by the time helped arrived and we located the weapon, the clip was missing.

We went to Federal Court and because I could not swear the weapon was loaded, due to it being a semi-automatic weapon and unable to actually see the bullets, the charge went to ADW instead of Terrorizing with a Firearm, then because it was proven through my actions I could take the suspect out and he admitted I had no problem since he was just holding it and had no intention of shooting me, he was put on probabtion.

Maybe I would not have been here if it would have been loaded, who knows.

It isnt really easy being a Cop and when threatened, you have to make a judgement call based upon training and based upon the circumstances.

Just sharing

Gramps

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Gramps I admire the courage you had when you did your job. I know the cop or swat face the inline when they put on the uniform. But i will say this. They cornered this kid a bathroom. He had no place to go. The cop that came face to face with his gun did so on is own. I have been witha cop that works as a neogatioter. the swat corners the guy, and the neogatioter comes in to work. This cop didnt allow the talker to come in. The neoatioter i know has been closer to the guy holding hte gun then most swat guys. he knows how to talk and what to say and not put himself in the line of fire which is what i thought most swat and cops are trained to do. This kid as i see it was cornered, no where to go. The negotaitor would have told him just this look kid you have a gun we know u want to die but we arent goning to be the guys to do it. so either u let us help you or u end it yourself. The situatuon as i said was bad but i still say some rules werent followed

[duke o' york]

But if he'd dropped the gun when told to then everything would have been different, and they could have brought the negotiators in. Even if he'd just pointed it at the floor, but since he chose to wave the gun in the direction of the policeman, then they had no option but to shoot.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Grandpa Troll
Like what goes up must come down.

Gramps

As long as the shot is fired at an angle closer to the vertical than ~70 degrees above horizontal the bullet will have insufficient velocity (due to air resistance on its flight path) on its return to do any damage.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by duke o' york
But if he'd dropped the gun when told to then everything would have been different, and they could have brought the negotiators in. Even if he'd just pointed it at the floor, but since he chose to wave the gun in the direction of the policeman, then they had no option but to shoot.

I understand what you are saying here, but i am saying they the cops had this guy cornered in a bathroom. He had no way out. why was this cop in plain site that he could have been shot point blank with neogatioters on the scene. The kid wasnt going anywhere. if i read correctly the cops chaesd this kid into a bathroom. the talkers should have been brought out first not the swat rush the restroom with a suicidal kid with a gun locked in a room with no way out. I believe the situation was handled wrong. I understand the swat team is there to end the situation, but i still think they blew a chance to try and talk to the kid. They busted in the door the kid waved the gun and bam the kid is shot and killed liek he said he wanted. Big drop of a ball i say

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


As long as the shot is fired at an angle closer to the vertical than ~70 degrees above horizontal the bullet will have insufficient velocity (due to air resistance on its flight path) on its return to do any damage.

I agree it wont do as much damage

BUT

When I was on we had a couple option in 1979, I had a Model 10 "K" (Combat Frame) Smith and Wesson Revolver. I had Hot Loads (CCI Super Sphere) (IIRC, 158Grain Hollow Point, Copper Jacket, 1380 FPS)

Now when it goes up wont it cause some problems coming down?

I look at my grandson when he rubs his face against my beard or bumps on a corner of a cabinet and bruises, wouldn't that round go right through him if it hit his tender tissue?

Im by far no expert on weapon trajectory or foot pounds in that case, just wouild seem it would have the possibility to damage upon return, BUT, I shall defer because I have -zero- historical data my friend

Still sad what happened.

My son is on the local SWAT TEAM for the Sherriff Office, and his weapon is a UMP .45 and I wore a .45 in the U S Army MP in the 1970's, whatever he hits is gonna tear a hole. His sidearm is also a .45 and why anyone would tempt or force an officer to make a decision to use deadly force, is beyond me.

I know bad cops exist, I know bad decision's have been made, but when a decision is made, a clinical, non- emotional discharge of duty, a conscience decision has to be carried out to render the situation neutral from the escalated state it has taken. Not what about reforming this boy or sending him for a period of evaluation, but stop the course of action that the perp has undertaken. I remember taking a Shoot-Dont Shoot course, a film and you have an electronic weapon. A suspect came at me in an alley way, I got down behind a crate, ordered the suspect down, he was mumbling disorientated, and looked down in his belt area, under a large winter coat, I was in Firearms Training, and protocol dictated this suspect did NOT leave the alley, well, he pulled a glint of something from under his coat and I had my 6 Cell Kell Light, lit him up and he held a sign that said he was a Deaf Mute. My heart stopped, Im a young officer, full of myself (even moreso than now )

I ponder what would happen in a real situation had I "opted to jump the gun" and killed this person (on film) because I thought the shiny thing was indeed a weapon.

Officers go through very intense training to get to the point that they are at, heck we didnt have negotiatiors on my department, not sure what smaller departments do, but Officers are not above making a mistake. They can go only on what information and action they have been presented with.

I would feel reasonable sure the Officer didnt feel exceptionally super having to do what he did, except he followed mandated training.

Just sharing

Gramps

[Berzerker]

The 21 feet range comes from thousands of studies of knife situations. It makes two assumptions. The assailant has the knife drawn (thats how you know he has a knife) and you do not have your weapon pulled (it is in your holster).

So 21 ft is irrelevant because the guns were drawn

Dr Strangelove (whom received one of my coveted votes for the HOF ) with this information in mind, "winging" a suspect in the leg with a much more powerful weapon than a pellet gun could have disastrous results?

Im just sharing since it was suggested to shoot someone in the limb versus a body shot.

Yeah, a chest shot does so much less damage

[Grandpa Troll]

I didnt say a Chest would do less, I was saying hitting in a limb could cause signifigant damage if hit in wrong place

Just clarifying

[Berzerker]

you needed that clarified?