Moving Israel to Europe

[DinoDoc]

ah, well this is kind of like crying over spilt milk but I did start it. My point basically boils down to the fact that I view it as a bad idea to raise from the dead countries that haven't existed for centuries on land that doesn't belong to them. The claims of a historical injustice being the basis of the madate are wasted on me as it is largely irrelevent to the point I'm making. As for the interpretation that the mandate was calling for a bi-national state, I find that laughable on it's face given its eventual fate when the successor body. I also find it doubtful that there was any desire to live in a binational state given the actions of Irgun and Stern in cleaning out undesirable concentrations of Palestinian civilians.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
ah, well this is kind of like crying over spilt milk but I did start it. My point basically boils down to the fact that I view it as a bad idea to raise from the dead countries that haven't existed for centuries on land that doesn't belong to them. The claims of a historical injustice being the basis of the madate are wasted on me as it is largely irrelevent to the point I'm making. As for the interpretation that the mandate was calling for a bi-national state, I find that laughable on it's face given its eventual fate when the successor body. I also find it doubtful that there was any desire to live in a binational state given the actions of Irgun and Stern in cleaning out undesirable concentrations of Palestinian civilians.

The Jews principle concern was free migration. The arabs made it clear during the 1920's and 1930's that they were opposed to any migration of Jews to the land. Given that, a binational state no longer seemed like a realistic options to most Zionists (though some, like Martin Buber, still supported the idea as late as 1946). Given the need for a Jewish majority state to enable Jewish immigration, the compromise that would respect the national rights of both peoples was partition. Partition was accepted by the Zionists, and was rejected by the Arabs.

The right - the revisionist Zionists -rejected partition west of the Jordan. In their view the original League Mandate referred to transjordan as well as Palestine, and the British decision to give transjordan to the Hashemite dynasty already WAS partition, and gave the arabs room to fulfill their national rights. The mainstream Labour Zionists accepted that partition west of the Jordan river was necessary. That has been their position from that day to this.

What makes you think the Irgun and Stern gangs represented majority opinion among the Jews in Palestine? I suggest that you would do well to learn more about the actual politics of the Jews of Palestine at the time. There are many good sources.

[Last Conformist]

Ahmadinejad should reflect a bit over that fact that Israel was built by people who chose to live in the Middle East rather than Europe. They, one must assume, prefer him to us as neighbours - he should be flattered.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
ah, well this is kind of like crying over spilt milk but I did start it. My point basically boils down to the fact that I view it as a bad idea to raise from the dead countries that haven't existed for centuries on land that doesn't belong to them.

The jewish people were not dead. They just didnt live on their land.

There are no other examples I know of, where a people in long exile, kept not only a memory, but a claim on a land, and then organized a return to it. So basically your "general point" boils down to you think the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Israel was a mistake. Which is duly noted.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Ahmadinejad should reflect a bit over that fact that Israel was built by people who chose to live in the Middle East rather than Europe. They, one must assume, prefer him to us as neighbours - he should be flattered.

From what I can gather, many Iranians are not pleased by the statements of Ahmadinejad.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
ah, well this is kind of like crying over spilt milk but I did start it. My point basically boils down to the fact that I view it as a bad idea to raise from the dead countries that haven't existed for centuries on land that doesn't belong to them.

Duh.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Duh.

dead countries, or dead nations?

Was it a mistake to revive Poland?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



From what I can gather, many Iranians are not pleased by the statements of Ahmadinejad.

From what I can gather, many Iranians do like his assertative style and anti-Israeli stance.

However, neither attitude has much to do with the point I was making.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
What makes you think the Irgun and Stern gangs represented majority opinion among the Jews in Palestine?

The fact that their leaders ended up being PMs of the country and I can't find any reference of them apologizing for those actions (If you could point me to a reference showing they did, I'd be grateful.).

I suggest that you would do well to learn more about the actual politics of the Jews of Palestine at the time. There are many good sources.

Teach your, padawan.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

From what I can gather, many Iranians do like his assertative style and anti-Israeli stance.

However, neither attitude has much to do with the point I was making.

My point was that many Israelis think they can get along quite well with Iranians. But not with the current president of Iran.

But why should Iranian jews, Iraqi Jews, Moroccan Jews want a homeland in Germany?

BTW, its interesting to note that at the time of the League mandate, the Jewish national home was not the prinicple arab objection - the division of region between britain and France was - in particular the establishment of French rule in Damascus. Emir Abdullah of Transjordan expressed support for the a Jewish national home in Palestine, and asked for Zionist support for his attack on Damascus. The Zionists were reluctant to move against the League, and the whole project collapsed in short order, and this episode has been largely forgotten.

[Last Conformist]

But why should Iranian jews, Iraqi Jews, Moroccan Jews want a homeland in Germany?

Did you misread me or something? I was saying that European Jews prefered Iranians and Arabs as neighbours to us regular Europeans.

Actually, they still do, since more Jews emigrate from Europe to the Mid-East than vice versa.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The jewish people were not dead. They just didnt live on their land.

I wasn't aware that I was refering to people in the post you quoted. I think I was refering to a dead country or State if you prefer.

So basically your "general point" boils down to you think the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Israel was a mistake. Which is duly noted.

I believe that I explicitly said that in the first post I made in the thread. I also said that trying to destroy the state now as the rhetoric of Ahmadinejad and [insert terrorist group here] seem to be calling for in stupid. Hence the crying over spilt milk reference.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The fact that their leaders ended up being PMs of the country and I can't find any reference of them apologizing for those actions (If you could point me to a reference showing they did, I'd be grateful.).

I suggest that you would do well to learn more about the actual politics of the Jews of Palestine at the time. There are many good sources.

Teach your, padawan.

1. Begin did not become PM till 30 years after the war of independence, by which time his role in the Irgun was not the key issue in Israeli politics. In the elections that took place immediatly after Israeli independence, Begins party, Herut, gained a small minority.

He did not apologize - he denied that any massacre ever took place at Deir Yassin (which I assume is what you are referring to) . Id rather not get started on the details of that, and Im not sure Begin was right, but certainly the israelis who voted for Likud in 1977 were not voting to express their approval of any massacre.


Your belief that you can read backwards from the results of the 1977 election, to the political situation among the Jews of Palestine in 1946, or even in 1922, while ignoring the evidence of the prior elections and prior political activity is odd. Especially given the many changes in Israeli politics over the time, including the mass immigration after 1948 which brought in hundreds of thousands of new voters who werent part of the political scene in 1946, or in 1922.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The fact that their leaders ended up being PMs of the country and I can't find any reference of them apologizing for those actions (If you could point me to a reference showing they did, I'd be grateful.).

I suggest that you would do well to learn more about the actual politics of the Jews of Palestine at the time. There are many good sources.

Teach your, padawan.

You might start with Howard Sachar's History of Israel - im sure theres a copy floating around Ole Miss

edit: Indeed there is

http://umiss.lib.olemiss.edu/search/Xhoward%20sachar&SORT=D/Xhoward%20sachar&SORT=D/1%2C7%2C7%2CB/frameset&FF=Xhoward%20sachar&SORT=D&5%2C5%2C

my G-d, the internet is amazing!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


dead countries, or dead nations?

Was it a mistake to revive Poland?

The large majority of people who make up the Polish State today have ancestors who continuously lived through any interregnums in Poland's existence as an independent entity.

So Poland is a simple case of self-determination.

Israel is not.