Moving Israel to Europe

[Straybow]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Well this does raise an interesting point? Why was the decision made to carve the state in an area where other people were already living and had lived for quite sometime?

Well, there is no place to carve a state except where people were already living. Besides, Jews had been moving into the area for decades before WW1, Balfour, etc. Even before that Jews held a purality in Jerusalem.

However the idea of moving it now is quite stupid.

Why doesn't that icehole offer a corner of his country if it's so important to remove the Jews from the Levant?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It didn't belong to them and hadn't for centuries.

They believe god gave it to them. Can't really argue with people once god is invoked. Either you believe or you don't.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Ecthy
That picture is a Chinese nuke BTW

I thought it resembled a straw mushroom...

[Combat Ingrid]

Move Israel to Hans Island

[Sava]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
You're going to fight for my rights. No comment.

That's right!

Even the mentally handicapped should be allowed to vote.

[Daz]

Move it to the USA. They're their official nuthuggers anyway. So why not joining them together...in holy matrimony...

I hear New Mexico resembles the holy land... Or Texas...

Anyone from Texas around here?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why was that considered to have been of more importance than the rights of the people living there at the time?

First of all, if youre referring to the time of the establishment of the League of Nations mandate, there were in fact 100,000 Jews living there at the time. They represented majorities in the towns of Safed and Tiberias, possibly Jerusalem, a large presence in the major port of Haifa, and had established the new town of Tel Aviv. They had a established a heavy band of agricultural settlements in the coastal plan near Tel Aviv, and had begun the agricultural settlement of the plain near Tiberias.


Second, the League mandate did not give all of Palestine to the Jews. It called for the establishment of a national home for the Jews IN Palestine not OF Palestine. The implication, depending on how you interpreted it, was either for a binational state, or for partition. So the national rights of the current arab inhabitants was recognized - although in fact nationalism was a new bloom in the region at the time, and it was far from clear whether the nationalism of the arab inhabitants would be satisfied through "palestinian nationalism" syrian nationalism, or some kind of greater arab nationalism.


Third the Jews claim to a homeland there was based not only on there actual physical presence at the time, but on their history - and not just biblical history.

The Jews had had a state there, on and off, from 1000 BCE to 67 CE, and again briefly in 146 CE. Since the Jews had lost their state, no one else had established a state in Palestine - it was always ruled by outsideres - Romans, Byzantines, Arabs ruling from Damascus, Baghdad, or Cairo, and finally Turks.

Even after Jewish soveriegnty had been ended by the Romans and Jews repressed, enslaved, and exiled, there continued too be a large Jewish presence in the land - many towns had jewish majorities, and there continued to be a jewish rural presence, especially in Galillee. The land continued to be of cultural importance to Jews - the Jerusalem Talmud was completed in 400 CE, and an important tradition of copying of the Hebrew bible took place there until circa 900 CE.

The Jewish rural presence was not substantially wiped out till circa 1000 CE, due to banditry and disorder under nominal muslim rule. Further demographic destruction was accomplished by the first crusade, which massacred the substantial Jewish population of Jerusalem, leading the community to its nadir. However in the 13th century a group of rabbis migrated there, including the notable Nachmanides. By 1600 the land was again a cultural center of Judaism, particulary of Lurianic Kabbalah.

Throughout this period Jews prayed for return to Israel, maintained in various forms (not just as a language of prayer) the language they had used in the land, and followed a calendar based on the agricultural seasons of Israel.

[lord of the mark]

It should also be pointed out that suggesting a state in europe ignores the fact that about 40% of the Jews of Israel are FROM the Muslims world, particularly large communities from Iraq, Morocco, and Yemen.

The current president of Israel, Moshe Katzav, happens to have been born in Iran.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Oerdin


They believe god gave it to them. Can't really argue with people once god is invoked. Either you believe or you don't.

Most of the early Zionists were secularists. They pointed to the actual history of the people and the land, and used the bible as one more historic source.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It didn't belong to them and hadn't for centuries.

define "belong" It "belonged" to the Ottoman Empire, but the Ottoman Empire had just lost a war to the victorius allies, and was in a state of collapse. The territories were available to the League to dispose of. The OE in turn had taken it by force from the Mamelukes, a group of slave warriors who ruled Egypt. Like most of the rest of the world it had passed by force from one state to another for along time. The league, in establishing a new order, decided to right a historic injustice, and allow an ancient people back to theland of their origin, which was still central to their culture, and which had a substantial Jewish minority.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Az
Try other sources, you'll get the same number.

Personally, I might have given them New Jersey...

-Arrian

Antisemite

Ok, ok, how about Montana?

Jersey's not too bad. Instead of suicide bombers, you would have to deal with lots of nasty chemicals and the mob. Still seems like a decent trade...

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
man, this troll is sooo rich coming from an american.

The powhatan Confederacy at least had a functioning, independent political entity at the time the English arrived, in the land where I live now. More than you can say for the Arabs in Palestine anytime since the arab conquest. They hadnt even been ruled by an arab state since 1400 at the latest.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
IIRC, the parts offered were sparsely populated at the time.
The Holy Land would still be there. They could visit it anytime they liked just like we christians.

I love religion, really I do.

Christmas time must be painful for you. You might like how the Japanese celebrate it though.

Large parts of Palestine were sparsely populated.

Israel in Judaism plays a different role than it does to Christians. Its not just a place where there are some holy sites of importance to the religion. Its the birthplace of the people.

I like Christmas time. The lights are pretty.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Actually I'm just curious why Uganda wasn't accepted when offered.

1. It didnt look all that practical.

2. There was already a significant Jewish minority in Palestine to build upon, there was none in Uganda

3. The mass of ordinary jews were excited about the return to Israel, and were indifferent to Uganda.


BTW, a breakaway group of Territorialist left the world Zionist movement, with the idea of accepting the Uganda offer, but IIUC the Brits withdrew it.

[Arrian]

Christmas lights

White Christmas lights

Garish nativity scenes, Santa Clauses, etc.

Ted Striker

-Arrian