Girls in Pakistan ordered raped to pay off debt

[Ecthy]

We cannot, must not force our values upon them!

[dannubis]

Originally posted by Az

i think that is the root of the problem patroklos. too little education with the common people

How come? What does the ability to read and write have to do with the legitmacy of rape in society? the link is very indirect.

no, but the ability to think for yourself without having to trust even the most basic knowledge of men considered 'wise' does.

[Ecthy]

I can't see too much of a link either.

[dannubis]

how did our society evolve from feudalism to the free society we have today?

[Ecthy]

We invaded France.

[dannubis]

i still wonder what you were looking for there though

[Ecthy]

Well they had declared war to be honest with you. Also, I'm talking 1870 not 1940.

[Az]

no, but the ability to think for yourself without having to trust even the most basic knowledge of men considered 'wise' does.

however, it's not the inability to read that is the crucial factor - it's the dictation of messages of extreme misogynism by their society that is the problem. These will remain unchanged by the ability to read - and will be amplified through the strength of the new medium.

[dannubis]

"you keep them dumb, we will keep them poor"

social thruth of the middle ages.

[Az]

and they say that progress hasn't reached the ME!
Now, the message is "we'll keep them indoctrinated!"

thats soooo much better...

[dannubis]

they can be easier indoctrinated because they don't know better. they aren't educated enough to see the problems and shortcommings of their society. they don't know better.

which isn't an excuse for what's happening though. it's the explanation.

[our_man]

This is terrible, but what can we do about it? The sad thing is that the women in these countries are actually willing to put up with it (I've yet to see a suffragette movement in an Islamic country that compares to those in the West in the early 20th century).

These sort of problems have to be dealt with the society itself. We can scream and shout at them all like we like that they are barbarians, but in the end a substantial proportion of the population of these countries believe that we are the ones that exploit women, and their culture protects them.

It's very hard to change that sort of mindset.

I think we would be far better focusing on problems closer to home:

One-third believe victims of rape are to blame if they were drunk
By Jason Bennetto, Crime Correspondent
Published: 21 November 2005
One in three people believe a woman is partly or completely to blame for being raped if she has been flirtatious, or is drunk, according to new research. More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, a survey of 1,095 British adults found.

Rape support groups described the findings as "appalling" and part of a "sexist blame culture". A second study found that police continued to provide a "patchy" service when they investigated rapes.

Poor police responses and prejudiced attitudes among the public were part of the reason that an estimated 85 per cent of rapes went unreported, and that only about 6 per cent of those recorded by the authorities resulted in a conviction last year.

The public's attitude to certain types of behaviour by women was revealed in a poll, commissioned by Amnesty International, published yesterday.

One in five people think a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

Just over a fifth of people said that if a woman was alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, she was totally or partly responsible. In each of these scenarios a slightly greater proportion of men than women held these views - except when it came to being drunk, when it was equal. More women (5 per cent) than men (3 per cent) believed that a woman was "totally responsible" for being raped if she was intoxicated. Victim Support, the national charity, urged criminal justice professionals and healthcare workers to "consider how best to educate people about the terrible impact of rape, with a view to changing these attitudes".

The ICM poll also revealed that most of the British population had no idea how many women were raped every year in the United Kingdom.

Almost all, 96 per cent, of respondents said that they either did not know the true extent of rape or believed that it was far lower than the true figure.

Only 4 per cent thought the number of women raped exceeded 10,000. The number of recorded rapes in 2004-05 was more than 12,000 and the 2001 British Crime Survey estimated that just 15 per cent of rapes came to the attention of the police.

Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK, said that the poll was part of its Stop Violence Against Women campaign. She added: "It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the Government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist blame culture." She added: "These findings should act as a wake-up call to the Government to urgently tackle the triple problem of the high incidence of rape, low conviction rates and a sexist blame culture."

The number of recorded rapes of a female in 2004-05 was 12,867, up from 12,345 in 2003-04 - an increase of 4 per cent. The number of convictions for rape of a female in 2004 was 741, up from 666 in 2003.

A separate report by a working group for the Association of Chief Police Officers found that fewer than 10 out of the 43 police forces in England and Wales had dedicated rape investigation teams.

It also found that some were not gathering forensic evidence quickly enough. Eight forces were not using early evidence kits, which allow samples to be taken at the scene.

The review was carried out three years after police were given new guidance on investigating rape, to try to increase the number of successful prosecutions.

The progress report found that a number of forces - including the Metropolitan Police, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester - had made significant improvements.

One in three people believe a woman is partly or completely to blame for being raped if she has been flirtatious, or is drunk, according to new research. More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, a survey of 1,095 British adults found.

Rape support groups described the findings as "appalling" and part of a "sexist blame culture". A second study found that police continued to provide a "patchy" service when they investigated rapes.

Poor police responses and prejudiced attitudes among the public were part of the reason that an estimated 85 per cent of rapes went unreported, and that only about 6 per cent of those recorded by the authorities resulted in a conviction last year.

The public's attitude to certain types of behaviour by women was revealed in a poll, commissioned by Amnesty International, published yesterday.

One in five people think a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

Just over a fifth of people said that if a woman was alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, she was totally or partly responsible. In each of these scenarios a slightly greater proportion of men than women held these views - except when it came to being drunk, when it was equal. More women (5 per cent) than men (3 per cent) believed that a woman was "totally responsible" for being raped if she was intoxicated. Victim Support, the national charity, urged criminal justice professionals and healthcare workers to "consider how best to educate people about the terrible impact of rape, with a view to changing these attitudes".

The ICM poll also revealed that most of the British population had no idea how many women were raped every year in the United Kingdom.
Almost all, 96 per cent, of respondents said that they either did not know the true extent of rape or believed that it was far lower than the true figure.

Only 4 per cent thought the number of women raped exceeded 10,000. The number of recorded rapes in 2004-05 was more than 12,000 and the 2001 British Crime Survey estimated that just 15 per cent of rapes came to the attention of the police.

Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK, said that the poll was part of its Stop Violence Against Women campaign. She added: "It is shocking that so many people will lay the blame for being raped at the feet of women themselves and the Government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist blame culture." She added: "These findings should act as a wake-up call to the Government to urgently tackle the triple problem of the high incidence of rape, low conviction rates and a sexist blame culture."

The number of recorded rapes of a female in 2004-05 was 12,867, up from 12,345 in 2003-04 - an increase of 4 per cent. The number of convictions for rape of a female in 2004 was 741, up from 666 in 2003.

A separate report by a working group for the Association of Chief Police Officers found that fewer than 10 out of the 43 police forces in England and Wales had dedicated rape investigation teams.

It also found that some were not gathering forensic evidence quickly enough. Eight forces were not using early evidence kits, which allow samples to be taken at the scene.

The review was carried out three years after police were given new guidance on investigating rape, to try to increase the number of successful prosecutions.

The progress report found that a number of forces - including the Metropolitan Police, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester - had made significant improvements.

On top of general public attitudes such as this is also the problem of how women are treated in unassimilated immigrant communities. It isn't as bad as France in the UK (AFAIK there are no Muslim rape gangs here yet) but things have to be done at home first before worrying about Pakistan.

It may be selfish of me, but I don't have any female friends/relatives in Pakistan. This article makes for upsetting reading, but it does no good except to remind us how badly women are treated across the world. I have female friends/relatives here, and these are the women I can do something for.

[our_man]

Ah, I see there's already a thread on those stats.

http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=143949

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by our_man
This is terrible, but what can we do about it? The sad thing is that the women in these countries are actually willing to put up with it (I've yet to see a suffragette movement in an Islamic country that compares to those in the West in the early 20th century).

a) Turkey is rather egalitarian in terms of genders

b) The West in the early 20th century was not going to be as repressive/deadly when it came to people advocating women's rights as would likely be many of the Islamic countries you're talking about


If you hadn't noticed, women's rights to the vote, to an education and to engage in all levels of society on an equal footing as men came about in the context of relatively stable secularist democracies. Many Islamic countries have not progressed that far. Suffragettes in the West were not subjected to socially-condoned rape on a regular basis. The two situations are vastly different.

[Az]

they can be easier indoctrinated because they don't know better. they aren't educated enough to see the problems and shortcommings of their society. they don't know better.

How about those that know half trues? or are well-educated fanatics ( which is mainly a repetition - most fanatics are educated ).

Like the suicide bombers - all or most of them, students, middle class, etc. Some of them even not grown up in the muslim world!