Israeli Politics Thread

[Sirotnikov]

Peretz for me is the communist version of Rav OVadia or Deri.

I will indeed vote against this socialist maniac. Down with large mustaches!!!

I hate Peretz for everything he is - a lowlife poplist and demagogue that uses smear campaigns against his political opponents, be it in the ministry of treasure, or inside the Avoda party.

I am also in favour of a strong liberal economical policy- bibi is the only reason Israel has started going out of recession.

[Az]

The wannabe middleclass walks.

[Eli]

Sorry Az, but you're outnumbered.

[Az]

the discussion is not about numbers -that's what the elections are for. But you people's hatred of Labor and Peretz is rather sad. luckily, he seems to do well in the polls - and will probably dictate the economical policy of the future government. Which is awesome.

[Zevico]

He wants every worker, no matter where they work to get a pension fund from their employers.

In Australia employers are required to give a portion of their employees' salaries to their superannuation fund. Is this what you meant? Because if not that sounds a bit extreme. I mean, what company would stay in Israel under those conditions?

[Az]

what's a "superannuation fund"? and if that's not what I meant what is the scary alternative?

[lord of the mark]

I think Kadima-Labor is not all that hard to put together. Labor managed to swallow the Peres policy of supporting with Sharon back when that meant being in coalition with Bibi Netanyahu and Uzi Landau. Kadima presents all that they the Labor moderates liked about the coalition - cabinet seats, pushing the peace process - without the (to them) obnoxious right wingers. I could see that Sharon will have to give them something on socio-economic issues, but Im not sure he has to give them everything. Peretz may want everything, but if Sharon offers something, and Peretz says no, what does that do to Peretz position in Labour? Afterall, IIUC, its still a party with a large yuppie/third way element that could rebel against Peretz. Labour has a history of tossing out its leaders pretty quickly these last few years. Heres a fantasy scenario - Sharon offers Labor a coalition for peace, with some social concessions, and Peretz turns it down cause he doesnt get everything he want. Peres leads the third way wing of Labour not into Kadima, but into Meretz, which forms a Kadima-Meretz-Shinui coalition for third way economics and peace!!!!!

But more likely, Peretz is reasonable, and forms a moderate coalition with Sharon. They can probably still bring in Meretz. Then they can play off Shinui against Shas. Shas would, I presume, rather NOT see the state take a strong social welfare move, since that undercuts their own institutions, but can they afford (with their constituency) to oppose a social welfare govt? And if theyre the only religious party in govt, that opens up a lot of goodies.

[Az]

You underestimate the change in labor. Since the election of Peretz, it's like a completely different party. It's energetic, it's hungry, and it's not ashamed of biting social commentary.

You just have to be here to see it. It's no wonder that Eli and Siro are so militant - their positions are under threat!

[Eli]

You overestimate the change in Labor, Az. Peretz definetely gave them a strong push and lots of motivation, but it's still the same party with the same leaders, they are just singing a different song.

[Az]

the leadership is the same, but isn't thinking the same - since they didn't even dream of having a chance of winning these elections and now with Peretz, and the Kadima split, they're going strong in the race. Also, the entire party apparatus is envigorated, and thousands upon thousands of people joined the party after the win of Peretz, and the new winds in the general public.

[Eli]

It's all changing, the party is being invigorated, etc, but it looks dramatic only because the Labor was as dead as a 4000 years old mummy before Peretz.

Their advantage will be much smaller when the entire political system switches to a higher gear. I still think they have pretty good chances at winning, as I said in my first post in this thread, but this doesnt mean that there is some huge unstoppable wave of revival in the party.

[Az]

Their advantage will be much smaller when the entire political system switches to a higher gear. I still think they have pretty good chances at winning, as I said in my first post in this thread, but this doesnt mean that there is some huge unstoppable wave of revival in the party.

nothing is unstoppable, and Sharon is coming with a huge advantage - however the wave of revival is undeniable. from zero chances to 35-40% chances of winning - that's pretty awesome. If you think that's "Davar shel ma bekach" you're being 'purposefully dumb'.

Sharon will have to build a campaign network nearly from scratch, and Likud is routed in the trenches, and it will take them weeks to even elect a candidate. Peretz, however has his party in high morale, has the support of the unions - Certainly better chances than Likud.

[Eli]

nothing is unstoppable, and Sharon is coming with a huge advantage - however the wave of revival is undeniable. from zero chances to 35-40% chances of winning - that's pretty awesome. If you think that's "Davar shel ma bekach" you're being 'purposefully dumb'.

So now the Labor returns(at least it seems so) to it's rightful place and becomes a party with a chance to win. How is their current absolute situation something special?

Sure, Peretz deserves all the credit for immensely improving their relavite condition, but that's not what matters in the poll booths. And it wasnt that hard either, the fuss around Peretz seems to be mostly because of his novelty value as a socialist, left wing Morrocan. Half of this "revival" is media hype.

In short, I refuse to get excited from a party that has a small but decent chance of winning against a lying, corrupt geriatric.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az

"Davar shel ma bekach"

A matter of what is in the thus? Clearly an idiom that escape me. Ma zeh b'anglit, b'vakasha? (whats this in English, please)

[Sirotnikov]

and will probably dictate the economical policy of the future government. Which is awesome.

that would be horrid!!!

It is damn obvious by now, that no one is going to tax really rich people.

So we have peretz who suggests more taxes on the middle class people, and on bussineses (which would result in higher costs of products, and higher taxation on small bussineses) or we have Nethanyahu / Shinui, that suggest lower taxes on the middle and low class, and more incentives to go to work, instead of spilling money into the pockets of people who can't use it.

If you give a poor man a buck - he will eat for a day.

If you teach him how to earn money, and give bussineses incentives to hire him (clue: not by raising minimum wages by dozens of percent), he will eat for the rest of his life.


I must say that the problem with MOST of the poor people in Israel is psychological and moral rather than anything.

Lets take a look at the aliyah from Russia, which brought alot of people with no money, no language or connections, but a high 'work siscipline' and 'education discipline'.

Result: 15 years later, most of the Russian alyiah have risen to become middle class (when at first they were garbage collectors and street cleaners) and some 2nd generation families are getting off very well.


However, other social groups, rely much more on "getting welfare money" than on trying to earn something for their own.

You have dozens of stories about people refusing different kinds of work, and prefering to recieve free welfare from the government.

You have tons of people who achieve NOTHING in school, and who finish 9th grade when they can hardly read, don't know math, and don't care about anything else but "chillin'".

That is an issue of bad culture and bad education at home.


Raising the minimum wage for people who have no work morals, and no ability or desire to earn for a living, will not help anyone.


You need to create "ladders" that will enable poor people to gain more knowledge, and instead of earning more as a garbage collector - they would likely change their occupation to something better.

You need to create "ladders" for people to easily start small bussineses, and grow them into large ones.

These ladders don't exist in Israel. In the contrary - it is much more difficult to do here, than in any other state in the western world!!

That is why we have such high poverty.

The lower middle class, and the lower class is mostly stuck in production (be it of high-tech or low-tech prodcuts). Starting new bussineses is difficult and expensive. Gaining education and training is also.