Momentum builds for fence along U.S.-Mexican border

[Arrian]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Strange that Arrian had the only rational post in the thread. Though I don't see the need for providing special "assistance for our friends and neighbors."

Two reasons for "special assistance"

1) Fostering good relations w/our neighbors, major trading partners (or at least that's the idea - NAFTA and all that) and diplomatic allies (Fox is often criticized for being a Dubya puppet) seems like a good idea, and it is my understanding that the illegal immigration thing is a sensitive issue. Thus, if we go out of our way just a little bit to help (dedicate a some more staff to the Mexican embassy so we can have more people available to help w/the application process... stuff like that), it may pay dividends.

2) The problem we're trying to solve (illegal immigration) is heavily a Mexican-American thing. In keeping with the idea that what we want to do is turn many of those illegal immigrants into legal immigrants (rather than just trying and stop them all), it behooves us to go out of our way to help them, doesn't it?

-Arrian

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
We're not talking about immigration. We're talking about illegal aliens. Get your definitions straight, first thing.

Of course we're talking about immigration. If you want to discuss definitions, immigration is simply the movement from one country to another. The legality of that movement is another question, but it doesn't stop it from being immigration.

So the issue is whether or not you want to control the immigration, and if you do, to what extent. I agree with you that it's fine to control it and thus erect a barricade to aid in that purpose. Others don't think you should limit immigration. You can argue the merits of each position, but don't make claims that people are using the wrong definitions.

[Arrian]

My general thought on the matter of immigration is that if we accepted that we're not going to be able to limit it as much as we'd like, and focused our energy on properly assimilating (I'll get back to that word in a moment) those coming in - legally - we'd be better off, and so would they (well, "they" would become "us" anyway). Instead of just having 5 million underground illegals, ya know?

"Assimilation" is a trickey term. To me it means that they learn the basics of functioning in our society. This means learning passable English and the aquisition of the various forms of ID needed to get work, pay taxes, get benifits (health care, unemployment, etc). I know that these things happen now, but I think more could be done to help new immigrants deal with this stuff. And I think it's worth time, effort and $$.

-Arrian

[ajbera]

How about we let the illegals in freely, but if we find out you're an illegal immigrant we get to shoot you back to Mexico in a big cannon. I have no problem with immigrants, but there's a legal process to go through, and there's no good reason to allow anyone to circumvent it.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

determine who gets in.

Isn't that ironic for the country who STILL holds Emma Lazarus' words "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..." on the Statute of Liberty?

Thats where Ellis Island was right?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Subverting a law you dont like by attacking legitimate methods for enforcement doesnt strike as a good thing.

I'd imagine the leaders of the civil rights movement would disagree .

MLK used civil disobedience to call attention to and change unjust laws, not merely to attack the methods by which they were enforced.

IS, if you want to go perform an act of civil disobedience to call attention to what you beleive to be the injustice of our immigration laws, and you are willing to "go to jail for justice" I admire you. But to sit back sniping at the fence, is something else.

[Kontiki]

Ellis Island is still where it's always been, about 1/2 mile from the island the where you'd find the Statue of Liberty.

[lord of the mark]

in 2004 537,000 people were naturalized as US citizens.
God bless them all.



The notion that opposition to illegal immigration necessarily represents hostility to immigration strikes me as deeply dishonest.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Ellis Island is still where it's always been, about 1/2 mile from the island the where you'd find the Statue of Liberty.

so the general area then.

[Japher]

you have to cross a bridge

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Japher
you have to cross a bridge

SOL is on Liberty Island. Nearby is Ellis Island, where part of the old complex is an immigration museum. Both are accesible by boat. From Battery Park in NYC the same boat stops at both islands. Not sure for boats from NJ. I dont think theres a bridge to Ellis, and Im sure there isnt to Liberty Island.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
in 2004 537,000 people were naturalized as US citizens.
God bless them all.

The notion that opposition to illegal immigration necessarily represents hostility to immigration strikes me as deeply dishonest.

I'd agree with that statement. It does seem that those vehemently opposed to illegal immigration are *often* also hostile to immigration in general, but that is not always the case.

I think you and I agree that what we want is legal immigration. Exactly how much of it we might disagree on. As to the fence, my opinion is that it's a waste of resources better spent elsewhere, as laid out above. It's also a depressing symbol - and symbols can be powerful.

-Arrian

[Japher]

I dont think theres a bridge to Ellis, and Im sure there isnt to Liberty Island.

Maybe the illegal terrorists got it!

[MrFun]

It's an imaginary bridge -- it's there you just can't see it!!!!

[Japher]

oh, I see it!