Rugby - Hands Off Black!

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by child of Thor
ok maybe its just Mefin having some sour grapes to air? But his points on how players were just left with no clubs and were forced to look outside wales is fair i think. Anyway from the outside it seems a bit of a mess.

From my understanding I think the situation has stabilised from the freefall of a few years ago. I do think it was unfair, but that was from a time when clubs were forced to merge and downsize just to stay alive. I still think players are picked on their merits as I doubt Ruddock would ignore Wales' best players just because they weren't playing in Wales. Mefin is only a borderline player, so that is when it becomes important where you play.

As for Henson, I see it as an all or nothing gamble. If he succeeds he gets to play 6N, if he fails well he probably wouldn't have been involved in the 6N anyway. I think the punishment seems a bit heavy after seeing the incident, if Grewcock every time he did something similar he would have been forced out of rugby years ago...

Hope you're enjoying the Italian New Year Finbar!

[Havak]

Also reacting to the fact that Tana's retirement will be spent in NZ too. He has apparently turned down an NH pension in roder to spend time with his family in NZ (this is usually a euphanism meaning a players demands on personal terms were not met by the clubs bidding for them).

I think the punishment seems a bit heavy after seeing the incident,

Thats interesting. The media tart is lurking offside, sees a player approaching to clear him out and deliberately swings his elbow back into their face. As the player lies on the ground with a broken nose p****** blood our Gav then swings a boot at him, missing only because he overbalanced (most welsh apologists have tried to present this as him 'pulling out' of the kick - ludicrous excuse).

It was a blatant piece of violent foul play and I am amazed he has the balls to appeal. I pray the appeal panel stays resolute on this one.

*edit* Have you visited the BBC forums and seen all the allegations about BOD's uncle having been on the original panel that sat for Henson? Hilarious allegations of a 'clash of interest' abound (our Gav shot his mouth off about BOD, amongst many many others, in his recent book)

[MOBIUS]

I only saw it once a while back so maybe my memory needs refreshing...

I'm not complaining he got banned, he deserves it. It's just the bans that are handed out should be consistent and they're not.

[Havak]

It takes a few viewings to spot just how highly calculated a piece of elbowing it actually was.

I have to say on the point of consistency I do agree with you - the bans do vary considerably for similar offences. Pelous got nine weeks for use of the elbow though - so there is a comparison from this season.

[MOBIUS]

And Smit only got 6 weeks for fracturing a guys larynx with his elbow...

[Havak]

And thats the only one of the three incidents I haven't seen - but from what I read of it it was the worst of the three (the recipient of the elbow being fed through a tube for several weeks?)

I'm going to be controversial again here though and say I think the consistency argument requires the Smit ban to be viewed as unacceptably lenient rather than Hensons as too harsh.

I'm not sure about how Smit pleaded but Pelous pled guilty and that certainly mitigates the ban that get handed out (whether it should is an argument in itself).

Had Gavin pled guilty, or indeed shown any remorse at all, he would have no doubt received a smaller ban. He claimed innocence, ludicrously so IMHO, and got ten weeks. C'est la vie.

Just out of interest the original panel was two Scots and an Irishman - the appeal panel is two Irishmen and an Englishman.

[finbar]

I think Smit pleaded not guilty on the basis that it was, he argued, accidental.

Just out of interest the original panel was two Scots and an Irishman - the appeal panel is two Irishmen and an Englishman.

If they keep trying the combinations, there could be a joke in it.

Hope you're enjoying the Italian New Year Finbar!

Loving it. Even the cold. Gee, it's nice actually to have seasons instead of Sydney's 12-monthly humidity soup.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Havak
It takes a few viewings to spot just how highly calculated a piece of elbowing it actually was.

I have to say on the point of consistency I do agree with you - the bans do vary considerably for similar offences. Pelous got nine weeks for use of the elbow though - so there is a comparison from this season.

After the previous match the welsh lads felt they had been 'fouled' out of the game - i suspect his(the orange wonder) reaction was much to do with trying to get revenge for that previous encounter. Still it is stupid, but frustration over deliberate fouls can boil over.

hmmm i remember a match along time ago, where i had been targeted by the oppositions pack(yep all of them!). It was an uncomfortable afternoon(that we lost) in the frosty concrete like pitch.

Not only was i run over by their scrum destoying ours(and with a shout of "get im boyz!" i had 8 pairs of size 12 feet raining on my head - the joys ).

But after each ball i succesfully managed to get out from our struggling pack, i would find the number 8 saying hello. He even started to bite my leg and twist my foot backwards at one point, with the ball like 20 meters on the other side of the pitch. I had to laugh or i would have ended up doing a "gavin henson" i suspect

He will get the ban he deserves, but i understand the situations this comes from

[Havak]

I think you forget CoT that I was present for that first game – there in person. I can tell you now that the claims about that first game were utter and total bull. Almost everything Ospreys have had to say about the two games has been nonsense. I never realised what an awful moaning club they were since Neath and Swansea got shoe horned together into them – and I think their endless whining has done a great deal of damage to Welsh rugby these last two months.

All the claims you have seen of Henson having his head stamped on in the first game are ridiculous. Gavin was lying on the wrong side (as always) and he was rucked out on his back. A boot may have strayed fairly near his shoulder at one point but the head was certainly not touched.

What happened in the first game was that the Welsh forwards failed to achieve parity on the field. You cannot make up for that by b********ing off the field afterwards. They were soundly beaten, they didn’t like it, and that idiot of a coach got them far too worked up in advance of the return leg. Ospreys set out to hurt people in that second game – and that is not rugby for me.

Everything you have read from Ospreys has been carefully orchestrated propaganda to make Gavin seem the righteous crusader out to sets wrongs rights. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth that it has worked for them.

Yes that’s right – the media tart got a three week reduction on appeal. Still misses the opening two games of the 6N though – by which time Wales campaign will either be flying without him or all over.

And Ospreys are such a class act they had a board member give a statement after the appeal saying they were still unhappy with the punishment. Tough tumshy you whining goits! Take it like men!

[Havak]

And just in case you think I am being harsh on Ospreys here is their 'statement'

"It is still disappointing, but at least there has been a reduction. We felt justified in appealing the initial ban. There could have been more sympathy for Gavin, but we have accepted the panel's decision."

Well they don't have any choice about accepting - you only get one appeal.

But 'Sympathy'? He deliberately and cynically used his elbow against another players face (actually breaking their nose). He then claimed it was for retribution about how he was treated in an entirely different game (a claim I dispute strongly in any case). Why on earth does his ridiculous club feel he deserves sympathy???

[Havak]

This is interesting:

Former New Zealand fly-half Andrew Mehrtens has applied for South African citizenship so Harlequins can field an extra overseas player next season.
South Africans do not count as foreign players under the European Union's Kolpak ruling on restraint of trade.

There is something hugely ironic about an AB legend taking out different nationaility (doesn't it normally work the other way round - that is they change nationality in order to become an AB Legend?)

There is also something hugely insane about South Africans not being counted as foreign players in the UK. Still it does explain why London Irish has more of the Cape Town about it than it does Dublin Town these days.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Havak
This is interesting:

There is something hugely ironic about an AB legend taking out different nationaility (doesn't it normally work the other way round - that is they change nationality in order to become an AB Legend?)

There is also something hugely insane about South Africans not being counted as foreign players in the UK. Still it does explain why London Irish has more of the Cape Town about it than it does Dublin Town these days.

believe me it ain't just on the rugby pitch - i think london is a second home for south africans

And as for your comments on the bad grapes between Leicster and the Osprays, i'll take your word for it as i didn't even see the match. But there is one point you'll find impossible to give credit to.
I know the orange one is currently your number one enemy, and he has done his credibility no favours with his courting of the media etc(it may have tarnished his reputation beyond salvation in fact - but thats the gamble when you play the media game).
But i've heard things about Gavin henson, from people i know back in wales that knew him from before he started on his road to fame - and he has a reputation for being a pretty honest and straight up guy.

I thinking either the fame has gone to his head, or the media love a good story and its probably a combination of both sadly.

I know this might be hard to believe, not that it really matters in the scheme of things

But its a shame he will miss the England game, as i'm sure there will be a few people on the england side that would like to welcome him back in that special rugby way

[Havak]

But i've heard things about Gavin Henson, from people i know back in wales that knew him from before he started on his road to fame - and he has a reputation for being a pretty honest and straight up guy.

I can only guess that ‘fame’ has indeed changed him. Though I still think one tackle on a school boy and one penalty of a distance Andy Goode slots week in week out is a pretty small claim to fame.

My problem is he has appeared in front of two disciplinary panels and claimed to be innocent. If you have seen the footage you simply wouldn’t believe anyone would have the balls to claim innocence over it. It simply doesn’t match with the concept of a ‘straight up’ guy. It is clear he sees himself as what I would call a straight shooter – his book proved that. Anyone prepared to criticise a player who has proved himself to be of exceptional class over many years (BOD) and many of his own team mates is either a ‘straight shooter’ or a rampant egomaniac – and I suspect you know where my opinion on that one falls.

I think the best thing in the world for Gavin would be if Ms Church split with him. Perhaps rugby might regain his full attention then?

But its a shame he will miss the England game, as i'm sure there will be a few people on the england side that would like to welcome him back in that special rugby way

Oh I am sorry in a way. It would be so much harder for him in a hostile HQ than it was in a worshipping Millennium stadium. And England are hard charging again if still lacking somewhat in execution – the full on physical challenge is back in full effect.

I still think Shanklin is a far bigger loss to Wales than media tart. And I think you need to hope Gethin Jenkins stays fit as I don’t think Davies and the Jones boys are a match for our coal face team without him. There are so many other injuries, and so many players in poor form, that it looks a very hard job for Wales to win at HQ. But it is rugger – and you never really know.

Back row looks a real problem again – no Ryan Jones and Michael Owen has looked totally out of sorts since NZ?

[Havak]

I see Eddie is taking the helm at Reds Finbar - maybe they will finally achieve something?

It's going to be interesting for the new national coach - having to work above the man he replaces and the man everyone thought would get his job as he deals with Reds and Tahs repsectively.

Who are the players allowing to coach them at ACT these days?

[finbar]

Laurie Fisher, a lowkey local, will be in his second year with the Brumbies. Last year was a disaster for them but it's hard to know how much was or wasn't his fault. Their injury list was mindboggling.

Yes, the Reds snapped up Eddie. They'd have been insane not to. They have some good, very young talent, but they've lost a number of senior players to WA and elsewhere. The thing is, Eddie doesn't start until the end of this coming S14 season, so the kids have another season under the incumbent, Jeff Miller, who is clueless in terms of tactics. Wendell quit for NSW because he never saw the ball.

And, yes, having Eddie working beneath the new Wallaby coach - bound to be "Knuckles" - is tantalising. Eddie always expected cooperation from S12 coaches in preparing the Wallabies - using S12 to trial players in new positions, etc. We shall see how well Eddie cooperates. Adding extra spice, Eddie isn't shy about telling the world he wants another crack at the Wallabies.

The Ewen McKenzie "I want the top job/no I don't" saga is interesting, too. It's known that the Waratahs made it worth his while to stay with them. It's also thought that he thought he would be inheriting a poisoned Wallaby chalice at this point in time. The theory is that he will see out his new Waratahs contract and put his hand up for the Wallaby job after the next World Cup. But that will depend upon how the ARU sees his recent about face. He'd said he wanted the job, he as good as had it, then he changed his mind. Bodies like the ARU can have long memories.