Kansas School Board chief: Schools peddle porn!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Kuci

And they forfeit their parental rights because of this belief?

I was attacking the reasoning that the belief of the vast, VAST majority of people who've lived on this planet has some innate truth value to it.

[Berzerker]

Boris

I know it's futile to ask a lolibertarian this, but... should we therefore not tax people for highways they happen not to drive on? Or police they don't call?

Should people pay twice for these services? People pay twice to educate their children, they dont pay twice for police.

Dino

Crystal meth, crack, freebase cocaine, and marijuana.

And so much more... Didn't you vote for Bush?

Kuci

I was attacking the reasoning that the belief of the vast, VAST majority of people who've lived on this planet has some innate truth value to it.

We aren't debating "innate truth", we're debating where moral authority resides.

[DRoseDARs]

Didn't know Berz was a Libertarian; that explains this thread a lot more... I thought he was just being dense.

[Berzerker]

Hmm... a white flag disguised as an insult

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


The Eastern Shore probably doesn't even have those books in book stores.

I went to a private school, anyway. They still had Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby on the shelves.

Ah, Brer Rabbit, one of the classics. It wasn't until high school that I learned that tar baby is a euphimism and and pejorative. Uncle Wiggly was better anyway.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

I know it's futile to ask a lolibertarian this, but... should we therefore not tax people for highways they happen not to drive on? Or police they don't call?

On a continuum between Stasi like police coverage and Berz's ideal society I do think that we are uncomfortably closer to to the former than the latter.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Hmm... a white flag disguised as an insult

Interpret it as you will, but you're still wrong. It wasn't an insult, just a harmless jab. What, are you now channeling the living spirit of a certain unnamed gay fascist prone to explosive boughts of thin-skinned reactionism?

[DRoseDARs]

And another thing: White flag? I didn't realize we were fighting. I thought we were just going back and forth civily. I felt zero zilcha nada animosity towards you and I'm sorry if you felt some towards me. The feeling wasn't and isn't mutual if you did.

[Berzerker]

When someone replaces debate with "harmless jabs", I interpret that as a white flag in disguise. Aren't you kinda over reacting to my logical observation?

[DRoseDARs]

Over-reacting? No. Responding? Yes.

[Berzerker]

Sorry, all that stuff about channeling a gay fascist etc etc sounded incoherent. Can you "respond" with something more than a harmless jab?

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by GameGeek


My only my problem that lies in the "approved home-schooling curriculum." If I vote in school board elections, go to school board meetings, can't afford private schools, and still don't like what the school board is approving for curriculum, then my option is to "home-school [my children] with an approved home-schooling curriculum[.]" If I'm home schooling my kids and, presumably, still paying the taxes that go to support public schools, why should the school board or the state department of education get any say in my kids' education anyway? Isn't it my job as a parent to raise them? Isn't it my right to educate them as I see fit?

No it's not your right to educate them as you see fit. Of course liberals will say hey it's my kids and all, but that's plain egocentric thinking. Education must lead to a state where the person educated will be able to think independently, will have a rationale and have a notion of history, sciences and other subjects based on proven research. So you can't say you don't want evolution educated in class because frankly that's not in accordance with what is known in science today.

So education must be be objective, and parents have no right to say that children must be educated their way because their view is almost always biased by religious or other influences.

Finally: you pay for education, but so do people who don't have kids. So basically everyone should have the right then to decide what's being taught at school. Would you agree to that? And in the end, everyone has different a opinion on various matters so it would be impossible to come to a concencus anyway. I would not accept religious fundies to impose their twisted **** upon education programmes, and then what will happen... as nobody accepts the other person's view...? So the best thing is that not the parents decide what is being taught

[DRoseDARs]

I'm not going to spell out who I'm talkng about.

Anyway:

They have a bug up the ass about psychologists and drugs, not the more traditional notion of medicine. At least I've never heard any of them go after doctors/surgeons. But you're imposing your perception of life onto them, for all you know their religious adherence brings rewards non-adherents will miss out on. Your analogy is a bit flawed though, a life-saving medical operation is not comparable teaching ID or evolution.

Replacing hard science with disingeniously disguised religion is comparable. Simply put, there is NO PLACE for religion in a science class. None. All this griping about not being able to present ID into the science curriculum is just a dishonest attempt to force religion or just general non-sense (I'm not comparing the two; I have "religious" beliefs too) into a secular course. You'd probably have the same reaction to people trying to get the Time Cube presented as a "legitimate" alternative in science AND math classes that I'm having to ID proponents.

There most certainly are religious wingnuts that place their faith in God over actual medicine, medicine that came about through hard science. The only thing I'm missing out on is dying or at least suffering needlessly from otherwise treatable ailments. A good example would be in India where some muslim families are rejecting polio shots (yes, polio is still around as it never really left and health officials are sweating bullets that it doesn't make a resurgence, hence efforts to stamp it out again) because blah blah blah Allah blah blah blah. Then you have the people who reject immunizations over miniscule risks of side-effects. I'll grant them their fears, though I think they are the ones over-reacting. At least they base their objections in actual facts and data, not ill-defined Tales of Wonder or poorly repackaged religious dogma.

How does being a US citizen create an equal, no, a superior "right" to that of a parent? Even your "society" does not recognise you as the legal guardian. Okay, you pay half a parent's bills and show up at Little Johnny's soccor games and maybe we can talk about your "equal" right to determine Johnny's education. Until then you're a stranger to Johnny and his parents.

The fact I pay taxes means I now have the moral authority to decide what your children are taught? The Constitution makes no mention of education or schools, so the Framers disagree with you.

I don't know about children in your neck of the woods, but around here children go home after school to their parents, not to bunkers on school grounds. I fail to see how your right to teach your children about magic fairies sprinkling InstaEvolve dust around is being nullified by your child attending public school.

And it's odd that you seem to be ignoring that the US Constitution is a living document - not a stale, unchanging one - and that pretty much everything we have now (well, at least until the Bush the Younger was annointed... his administration just looks like it makes sh*t up as it goes) came out of the wording and powers granted to the government by said document.

Thats fine, but the notion that you get to steal rights from parents because you call yourself a US citizen is, in my personal opinion, full of crap...

Again, your child is home now from public school. Turn off the TV, sit down with them, and explain to him or her how The Great Invisible Hand guided life from the primordial ooze into the Great Minds of our time like Albert Einstein, Mahatma Ghandi, and Wierd Al Yankovic.



Well, scratch that last one. There's no explaining him.

So they need your permission?

I give my "permission" in the form of my vote. Same as you do. I seriously hope you can logically figure out where this goes from here in our system of government...

This is about Kansas, if the majority here wants ID then your standard has been met.

Yes, because dicussions NEVER drift from the main topic onto related tangents...

Good for Kansas. More under-educated workers for the jobs at Walmart that simply can't be outsourced.

Parents are coerced into using the government schools, they are taxed to pay for them so if they want a private education for their children they have to pay tuition twice. Many parents cant afford that...

We can start by relieving parents of the burden of paying tuition twice.

And again, it would be nice to be able to have more say where your tax dollars and mine go, but that just isn't how it is right now. I'm not disagreeing with your point here. I have no idea why this is even an issue; why the childless are paying taxes to subsidize the education of others' children. An argument could be made that the childless are paying back into the system that educated them (reciprocity), but that is a fairly weak position to hold unless you view it from the angle that a more educated tax base (regardless if they have children or not) provides more funding for an education system that produces an even more and better-educated tax base (again regardless if they end up having children or not). This leads to more, better-paying jobs, bigger amounts of solid taxes collected to subsidize projects for the public good (ignore for a moment all the corruption and misappropriation), and with Social Security et. al. a stable future for elderly couples, including those who never had children and thus no offspring to help take care of them in their old age.

[Berzerker]

No it's not your right to educate them as you see fit. Of course liberals will say hey it's my kids and all, but that's plain egocentric thinking.

Liberals agree with you.

Replacing hard science with disingeniously disguised religion is comparable.

A life saving operation is comparable to a kid being taught ID? Well, then I guess you'd have to make it illegal for private schools or home schoolers to teach ID too. That "equal right" you claim as a citizen seems to favor your opinions.

I don't know about children in your neck of the woods, but around here children go home after school to their parents, not to bunkers on school grounds.

What are you talking about now?

I fail to see how your right to teach your children about magic fairies sprinkling InstaEvolve dust around is being nullified by your child attending public school.

You claimed the "equal right" to decide what is taught to other people's children, that nullifies the right of parents to make that decision.

And it's odd that you seem to be ignoring that the US Constitution is a living document - not a stale, unchanging one - and that pretty much everything we have now (well, at least until the Bush the Younger was annointed... his administration just looks like it makes sh*t up as it goes) came out of the wording and powers granted to the government by said document.

The Constitution contains a process for changing it. Talk about making sh*t up

Again, your child is home now from public school. Turn off the TV, sit down with them, and explain to him or her how The Great Invisible Hand guided life from the primordial ooze into the Great Minds of our time like Albert Einstein, Mahatma Ghandi, and Wierd Al Yankovic.

Aint my business if you teach your kids to believe in God or not. I'm opposed to the Pledge of Allegiance for the same reason, liberals and conservatives are fighting over control of public schools precisely because they want to use those schools to indoctrinate other people's children. "Teacher, leave those kids alone".

I give my "permission" in the form of my vote. Same as you do. I seriously hope you can logically figure out where this goes from here in our system of government...

So because a politician said you get to vote, that means you get to vote away other people's freedoms? And I'm not arguing in favor of "our system", I'm arguing that the moral authority to educate a child resides with the child's parent, not strangers who've decided that calling themself "citizen" trumps the rights of parents.

Yes, because dicussions NEVER drift from the main topic onto related tangents...

Just bringing you back to the topic, you have a propensity for drifting off.

Good for Kansas. More under-educated workers for the jobs at Walmart that simply can't be outsourced.

So now "democracy" aint so sweet when the majority doesn't agree with you? Tell me, how would you feel if religious right wingers came into your home to exercise their "equal right" to make sure you're teaching your kids properly?

And again, it would be nice to be able to have more say where your tax dollars and mine go, but that just isn't how it is right now.

We're debating where the moral authority to teach children resides, not the alleged, "unchanging" limitations of the current system. Seems pretty simple to me, figure out the cost per student for a given district and lower the taxes of parents who opt out of the government schools.

I'm not disagreeing with your point here. I have no idea why this is even an issue

Its an issue because the left denies they are coercing parents into using government schools where liberals proceed to teach their ideology to the children of parents who disagree with that ideology. Evolution/ID is just the tip of the iceberg. You see, your "vote" has limits. You dont get to vote others into slavery, nor do you get to vote on what schools teach in Kansas because the US Constitution has yet to be changed to allow Congress and you to make those decisions.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Berzerker
And so much more...

I thought Kuci wanted a list. Feel free to add more if you feel like it.