Kansas School Board chief: Schools peddle porn!

[Arrian]

It does sound a little much for middle school. Not a bad 3rd-4th year HS assignment, though.

-Arrian

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So then why would parents object to kids being taught that God created man in His own image, that sodomy is an abomination, and that smiting sodomites is doing God's work?

After all, "if they don't like that arrangement, too bad."

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[Bill3000]

...on the banned book list:

35. What's Happening to my Body? Book for Girls: A Growing-Up Guide for Parents & Daughters by Lynda Madaras

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Because its their children and its their money paying for the school?

The purpose of science courses is to teach science, not what parents think should be taught. Science isn't decided upon by popular vote.

Ruining the science education of others to protect one's child from learning about something one doesn't agree with is hardly democratic, either.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Perhaps you grew up in the wrong part of the state Boris?

The Eastern Shore probably doesn't even have those books in book stores.

I went to a private school, anyway. They still had Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby on the shelves.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Are we no longer a society?

Nope, acording to some people there is no such thing as society, only individuals and families (I'm sure the British know who said that).

I can't believe Berz is defending these idiots, oh wait, he's a Libertarian, he's supposed to beleive dumb things.

[Kuciwalker]

He did meth, which explains a lot.

[Berzerker]

Az

??? Who do you belong to? Nobody.

I belong to myself. So you believe parents have no right to decide what their children are taught? Based on what? You cant keep arguing children belong to no one when I ask that and then outline what you would teach other people's children.

The state - as an executive arm of society is nothing but a custodian that takes care of them, since they can't take care of themselves.

On whose behalf? The parents, therefore the parents have the right to decide what the custodian teaches their kids . I dont have the authority to teach your children what I want in opposition to your wishes, so how can I give my consent to the state to teach your children what I want in opposition to your wishes. The state does not create moral authority, it "borrows" moral authority from us.

It doesn't make much sense, yes, but it makes more sense that leaving them at the hands of the people who happen to share their DNA. Society can however delegate some authority to the parents, because usually they're interested in their well-being due to emotional/biological reasons.

You think the state makes more sense than nature? Those people who just happen to share your DNA conceived and raised you, tell them how some guy down the street - "society" - has the moral authority to guide your education and that if your parents are lucky (or do as told), he might just let them help. Oh, just noticed you're a commie

Let's start with something else. Why would anyone have any right to determine a child's education? It is my opinion that children shouldn't be indoctrinated into anything ( the "coz I said so" method of education ) I wasn't raised like this, and if my parents can, so can and should everyone else.

But your argument is "coz I said so".

The educational enviroment, generally, however, should be established by someone. Someone should have this authority. Then, we have two choices, basically - the parents, and society in general. If you think that the argument for society is slim, you just try to construct one for the parents.

Nature already constructed one for the parents.

DRose

Actually, they do attack legitimate medicine, but a lot of the focus is on psychologists. Anyhow, there are plenty of people who cite religious reasons to reject what a doctor is telling them, and that's just plain irresponsible.

They have a bug up the ass about psychologists and drugs, not the more traditional notion of medicine. At least I've never heard any of them go after doctors/surgeons. But you're imposing your perception of life onto them, for all you know their religious adherence brings rewards non-adherents will miss out on. Your analogy is a bit flawed though, a life-saving medical operation is not comparable teaching ID or evolution.

As a US citizen, I pay taxes too, just like them. And as a US citizen, I can vote too, just like them.

How does being a US citizen create an equal, no, a superior "right" to that of a parent? Even your "society" does not recognise you as the legal guardian. Okay, you pay half a parent's bills and show up at Little Johnny's soccor games and maybe we can talk about your "equal" right to determine Johnny's education. Until then you're a stranger to Johnny and his parents.

The fact I pay taxes means I now have the moral authority to decide what your children are taught? The Constitution makes no mention of education or schools, so the Framers disagree with you.

Yes, my personal opinion is they're full of crap...

Thats fine, but the notion that you get to steal rights from parents because you call yourself a US citizen is, in my personal opinion, full of crap...

...but my personal opinion matters not. It's the process that matters. They need to plead their case effectively and convinces others, both elected officials AND fellow public that their way is best.

So they need your permission?

We saw a good example of what happens when garbage gets introduced into a school curriculum: The Dover School Board gets its ass handed to it by voters unhappy with Christian Creationism in Intelligent Design clothing leaking its way into legitimate science classes.

This is about Kansas, if the majority here wants ID then your standard has been met.

If the minority of parents feel that ID is best, they need to convince a majority of parents to agree. Otherwise, teach it at home or in church, not in an officially secular public school.

Parents are coerced into using the government schools, they are taxed to pay for them so if they want a private education for their children they have to pay tuition twice. Many parents cant afford that...

Yeah, it'd be nice if you could personally decide exactly what amount of your paid taxes go where under normal circumstances. Not going to happen, but a nice thought. I for one DO NOT like my taxes being pissed away in corporate giveaways.

We can start by relieving parents of the burden of paying tuition twice.

Sikander

It's actually taxpayer money, regardless of parental status.

Parents aren't taxpayers?

MtG

So then why would parents object to kids being taught that God created man in His own image, that sodomy is an abomination, and that smiting sodomites is doing God's work?

After all, "if they don't like that arrangement, too bad."

EFab

If you pay a doctor to tell you what you want to hear, please give me your money: its obvious you don't need it, or probably won't be alive long enough to spend it.

Thats my choice now, isn't it. If he tells me what I dont want to hear, should I be required by law to continue going to him?

And school isn't about what someone "wants to hear." If that were the case, my History class would be all about pirates.

If thats what your parents want and the school wont accomodate them, then the parents have the right to take you out of the school.

ASmith

The middle school down the road from us had a reading list for 8th graders (13 year olds) which included

The New Joy of Gay Sex, by Charles Silverstein
Sex, by Madonna, and
American Psycho, by Bret Easton Ellis

Gatekeeper

I was taught that, in being part of a greater society, there are benefits and trade-offs. One one hand, you don't always get what *you* want as an individual (example: going around nude in public when it isn't sanctioned).

A parent educating his kid is now comparable to public nudity?

On the other hand, people joining forces to accomplish something — i.e., a society — can, in the long run, be more beneficial to the individual (example: education, roads, technology, mass production).

Do people "join forces" knowing they are giving up their parental rights to "society"? I can guarantee not one state constitution, much less the US Constitution, acknowledges this "trade-off".

For some strange reason, there are folks out there who think they're universes unto themselves, and damn everyone else.

Yeah, so strange that these narcissistic parents would try to determine what their children are taught when you're there to teach them what you want. Let me see, millions of parents deciding what their kids are taught, or, you deciding what everyone's kids are taught. Yup, they're all selfish.

Boris

The purpose of science courses is to teach science, not what parents think should be taught. Science isn't decided upon by popular vote.

And what I want my kid taught is not up for a popular vote.

Ruining the science education of others to protect one's child from learning about something one doesn't agree with is hardly democratic, either.

Others can get themselves the curriculum they want for their kids. Raising children is not a democratic process, either.

Kuci

He did meth, which explains a lot.

Is that Dinodoc? What exactly does it explain and how does that relate to my arguments here? Many, many veterans used pharmaceutical speed in wartime. Are their opinions now without value? I thought you were a conservative or Repub, what happened to your respect for parental rights?

Odious

I can't believe Berz is defending these idiots, oh wait, he's a Libertarian, he's supposed to beleive dumb things.

And yet the vast, VAST majority of people who've lived on this planet believe parents have the responsibility to see to their kid's education.

[Kuciwalker]

They also believe in a deity/deities of some sort

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
And what I want my kid taught is not up for a popular vote.

So? If you don't want them to learn what public schools teach, enroll them in private/religious school, or home school them.

If a vocal minority of parents want the history classes to teach that the Holocaust never happened, why should schools even consider doing so?

[Berzerker]

Kuci

They also believe in a deity/deities of some sort

And they forfeit their parental rights because of this belief?

Boris

So? If you don't want them to learn what public schools teach, enroll them in private/religious school, or home school them.

I agree, so stop taxing them for public schools they dont use.

If a vocal minority of parents want the history classes to teach that the Holocaust never happened, why should schools even consider doing so?

See above

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I agree, so stop taxing them for public schools they dont use.

I know it's futile to ask a lolibertarian this, but... should we therefore not tax people for highways they happen not to drive on? Or police they don't call?

[Az]

I sense the beginnings of an great argument here. Give me time ( I now have to go to uni ) and I'll explainificate.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
He did meth, which explains a lot.

Crystal meth, crack, freebase cocaine, and marijuana.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I know it's futile to ask a lolibertarian this, but... should we therefore not tax people for highways they happen not to drive on? Or police they don't call?

According to him, probably yes.