Kansas School Board chief: Schools peddle porn!

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Berzerker
If I pay a doctor to tell me what I want to hear, he better tell me what I want to hear or refund my money.

If you pay a doctor to tell you what you want to hear, please give me your money: its obvious you don't need it, or probably won't be alive long enough to spend it.

And school isn't about what someone "wants to hear." If that were the case, my History class would be all about pirates.

[Adam Smith]

The middle school down the road from us had a reading list for 8th graders (13 year olds) which included

The New Joy of Gay Sex, by Charles Silverstein
Sex, by Madonna, and
American Psycho, by Bret Easton Ellis

Perhaps you grew up in the wrong part of the state Boris?

[Admiral]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
The middle school down the road from us had a reading list for 8th graders (13 year olds) which included

The New Joy of Gay Sex, by Charles Silverstein
Sex, by Madonna, and
American Psycho, by Bret Easton Ellis

Perhaps you grew up in the wrong part of the state Boris?

Please tell me that you are joking. Madonna wrote a book? That's almost as bad as Britney Spears starring in a movie. Oh wait...

[Az]

LOL Silverstain LOL

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by Az

It's not their children.

Then just whose children are they?

They don't own them, and don't have any divine right to program in the manner of their choosing.

Not in the same sense as we "own" personal property. But why should anyone have more right to determine a child's education than the child's own parents?

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs

No, but if they're attending public school they will be taught whatever curriculum is decided upon by the duly-elected school board. If the parents really want to have a say in the public school curriculum then they should speak at open meetings, vote in elections, or seek elected seats themselves. Otherwise, pony up the money for private school or home-school them with an approved home-schooling curriculum (usually much laxer than a public school's).

My only my problem that lies in the "approved home-schooling curriculum." If I vote in school board elections, go to school board meetings, can't afford private schools, and still don't like what the school board is approving for curriculum, then my option is to "home-school [my children] with an approved home-schooling curriculum[.]" If I'm home schooling my kids and, presumably, still paying the taxes that go to support public schools, why should the school board or the state department of education get any say in my kids' education anyway? Isn't it my job as a parent to raise them? Isn't it my right to educate them as I see fit?

[Pekka]

Adam Smith, that's a joke, right?

I haven't read Madonna's Sex, but I have read American Psycho and I have it. I don't think it's really suitable school material, so you must be joking.

[Az]

Not in the same sense as we "own" personal property. But why should anyone have more right to determine a child's education than the child's own parents?

Let's start with something else. Why would anyone have any right to determine a child's education? It is my opinion that children shouldn't be indoctrinated into anything ( the "coz I said so" method of education ) I wasn't raised like this, and if my parents can, so can and should everyone else.

The educational enviroment, generally, however, should be established by someone. Someone should have this authority. Then, we have two choices, basically - the parents, and society in general. If you think that the argument for society is slim, you just try to construct one for the parents.

[Gatekeeper]

Are we no longer a society?

I was taught that, in being part of a greater society, there are benefits and trade-offs. One one hand, you don't always get what *you* want as an individual (example: going around nude in public when it isn't sanctioned). On the other hand, people joining forces to accomplish something — i.e., a society — can, in the long run, be more beneficial to the individual (example: education, roads, technology, mass production).

For some strange reason, there are folks out there who think they're universes unto themselves, and damn everyone else. While I don't have a problem with individualism — it's a good thing in moderation, just like just about everything else — I am leery of most things that veer to the extremes. History has shown, repeatedly, that extremes generally are not good for humanity.

Regarding the topic at hand, I think the Kansas Board of Education is doing a great disservice to the people it professes to serve. But unless folks step up to the plate and vote, or agitate against extremism like this, they're doomed — individually and as a society — to a future that, frankly, is quite dismal.

Gatekeeper

[Pekka]

"History has shown, repeatedly, that extremes generally are not good for humanity."

Except extreme good. That can't be bad.

[Gatekeeper]

Didn't say it was. In my experience, though, extreme good is terribly outweighed other, less-savory, extremes. So I'm happy when extreme good does occur, but also *know* that it isn't to be expected. IOW, it's not the norm. Perhaps in some utopian future ...

Gatekeeper

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by Az

Not in the same sense as we "own" personal property. But why should anyone have more right to determine a child's education than the child's own parents?

Let's start with something else. Why would anyone have any right to determine a child's education? It is my opinion that children shouldn't be indoctrinated into anything ( the "coz I said so" method of education )

I never said anything about indoctrination. Whether it constitutes education or indoctrination is a question of methods, not rights.

I wasn't raised like this, and if my parents can, so can and should everyone else.

And good for them. That doesn't have any bearing on whether I have the right to educate my kids as I see fit, though. What's more, it was your parents' right to determine how you should be brought up & educated. Not mine, not society's.

The educational enviroment, generally, however, should be established by someone.

Right.

Someone should have this authority.

So far, so good.

Then, we have two choices, basically - the parents, and society in general.

I'm with ya.

If you think that the argument for society is slim, you just try to construct one for the parents.

Well, this doesn't answer my question as to why anyone but me should decide how my children are educated, but I'll humor you.

First, my children are just that, my children. The decision to have them was made by me and my wife. Up until a certain age, we are responsible for their health and well-being. If we do not provide for that health and well-being, we could face loss of our children and criminal charges. We are responsible, financially, for them: birth, doctor's visits, private school tuition, etc. We are, to some extent, responsible for their actions. I believe that part of my child's well-being depends on his or her education. Consequently, when I am responsible for my child's well-being, and that well-being depends on the child's education, it makes sense that I should be allowed to determine the course of that education.

Second, constitutional questions. There are some rights under the U.S. Constitution that have been held to be "fundamental rights." The right to reproduce, for example, is a fundamental right. The First Amendment protects my right to choose my own religion, and to hold whatever political views I want, however distasteful they may be to the majority. It also protects the right to assemble to discuss those views, political or religious, or otherwise. I don't think this has been litigated, but I suspect that the right to educate my children under a curriculum of my own choosing would be held to be a fundamental right. What good is the right to hold certain political views if I'm not allowed to pass them on to my children? Let's take a hypothetical. If the state can choose, without qualification, the curriculum for my child's education, it can choose to teach them that democracy is good and all other governmental forms are bad. What if I don't believe that? What if I think that theocracies are the way to go? If the state teaches my child otherwise or demands that I not teach this as part of the state curriculum approval process, doesn't this get cross-wise with my First Amendment rights?

Third, democracy and good government. Good, vital debate is essential to good government in a democracy. The danger in having state-approved curricula for home schooling is that The State can then dictate what constitutes a "proper education." I worry far less about individual parents indoctrinating their children than I do about The State doing so. Let individual parents teach their children as they see fit, and you're more likely to have opposing viewpoints. Without opposing viewpoints, no debate.

Fourth, society is made up, in large part, of parents. It's also made up of lots of voting non-parents. With regard to the parents in the lot, I don't have any reason to believe that a majority of them hold my views, nor that they have any reason to be concerned about anybody's education except that of their own children. Why should I trust my child's education to them? With regard to the voting non-parents, these people will probably vote in school board elections, but they don't have any real stake in the outcome, and so they may not do any work to find out anything about the candidates.

Well, there's a start at trying to construct an argument for the parents.

[Adam Smith]

Admiral, Pekka:

It's no joke. Here's the list.

The assignment was to read one of the books on the list and write a paper explaining why some people may be offended by the book.

In Madonna's "defense", her book apparently is mostly pictures. After all, an author has to go with their strength, right?

[Adam Smith]

cant get te file to attach...

[Kontiki]

How long would a paper be that explains why "Sex" by Madonna might be offensive? Your argument is either

A) It's a narcissistic porn collection or
B) Madonna isn't particularly attractive