US, not africans, responsible for slavery

[Az]

Does that help?.

Not really.



No problem.

What the qoute used by Toynbee is refering to was his use of comparaitve history, a fairly new concept when he used it and one found to have wide appeal and intrest. He was not a racist himself, nor was his intent to disparage or denigrate other cultures or civilizations, meerly use a method of study to prove his theorys of how and why civilizations fall, ie from internal conflicts, racism and nationlism being part of those conflicts a society was unable to control.

When Dr M L King gave talks useing Toynbee works he was not saying the work was a racist attack from science on negros, but that others were useing it as such. Its those and science itself, MLK and Malcom X comment on, for instance if a study concludes negros bone density is heavier than caucasion and this co9ntributes to them being less efiecent swimmers, its not a racist study but simply facts, what negros objected to was not the fatcs, but how, and why they were collected and used, ie intent.

If Toynbee had deliberatly set out to make a point that negros civilization was inferior to others on a set of bench marks, then he would be a cultural racist. which you would gety the impresion from by reading Wiki, but he was not, and MLK and others did not claim he was, they did however make the point that racist attitude existed in the scientific methods of some, and that this also must change.

An example of cultural racism would be the Uk BNP use of Toynbee works on the inteliegence of negros compared to whites, comparative achievements of non white civilizations and so on to argue the superiority of the white race over others, and of course that white culture is superior.

Facts are always neading to be intpretatated, if the intent of that intpretatation is to denigrate, insult etc then its a racist intpretation, but if its to simply show that level of difference bewteen them, its a celibration of diversification of mankind, and not racist al all.

What you speak of are two scenarios out of many:
-Comparitive history as a tool of a biased demagogue.
-Comparitive history as a tool of finding differences to celebrate.

These are just two scenarios out of many - that make me fear that what in actuality you do is that you have to adhere to the second path, unless you want to be branded as one following the first path.

I reject this binary notion, and think that it's ignorant.

When one comparitively analyzes cultures and societies and passes judgement on one of them, it hasn't anything to do with racism. The notion of racism is a very clearly established one, and it's connection to the cultural discussion is on a clearly demagogic level - as a connection of cause and effect, one that has little to no support in science.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Az
[q]

What you speak of are two scenarios out of many:
-Comparitive history as a tool of a biased demagogue.
-Comparitive history as a tool of finding differences to celebrate.

These are just two scenarios out of many - that make me fear that what in actuality you do is that you have to adhere to the second path, unless you want to be branded as one following the first path.

Well yes its often the case that the cry of racism stops inquiry and debate into the matter under discusion, so to avoid that, its often easier to adopt a method that makes it less easy for the cry of thats just racist to be applied. Toynbee wrote in his book that the cry of racism stops debate and inquery and diverts it into justifing ones inquiry in the first place, and was not intrested in justfying himself, only attempting to know more from inquiry. So yes his intent is critical to understanding if he was a racist.

It depends on pov, where i see differences to celibrate, others see differences to fear or examples of inferiority or superiorty, but that does not stop people crying thats racist and you cant even see it!, your just putting a new spin on it.

Cultural rascist would be the Nazi eugenics studys (amongst other viewpoints they hold) designed to show superiority of one race and culture over another, this is not the same as Toynbee work on history, in intent or anything else.

Nazis would find an argument to validate white superiorty over other negros from a base start point without any advantage to either, ie two civilizations with the same advatages and disadvatages will result in the white one achieving more than the negro, Toynbee otoh was trying to understand what choices society made that allowed one culture to surpass another, what choices they did not make and so on.

Originally posted by Az
[q]
When one comparitively analyzes cultures and societies and passes judgement on one of them, it hasn't anything to do with racism. The notion of racism is a very clearly established one, and it's connection to the cultural discussion is on a clearly demagogic level - as a connection of cause and effect, one that has little to no support in science.

Cultural racism is a concept that refers to the stereotype, and it's associated hostility, where some cultures are thought of as inferior or primitive. It 'is targeted not at non-whites in general, but at certain groups which are perceived to be assertively "different" and not trying to "fit in"' Cultural racism can manifest itself at both individual and institutional levels.

racism is the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others

Thus Tonbee was fair game for the cry of cultural racism, and being racist, from a certain viewpoint.

[The Mad Viking]

It is clear that Toynbee held Arab and Oriental accomplishments in very high esteem. So as Nicki said, he was not racist in that regard, and he was certainly not a white superiority advocate.

However, when you consider the remark I quoted, how absolutely it is phrased, combined with how wildly inaccurate it is, I find it difficult to believe he was not racist in his consideration of blacks.

*

Why was there no trade in white slaves in the Americas? Even in the 1500s?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking

Why was there no trade in white slaves in the Americas? Even in the 1500s?

There certainly was treatment of prisoners of war as 'spoils' of war- and Catholics were deported to the Caribbean after the Cromwellian wars in Ireland, as were some of the defeated forces in the Monmouth Rebellion.

I suspect the rationale was that it would have been difficult to pose as superiors of black Africans if whites were traded or enslaved in similar numbers or for the same reasons, and there was a substantial supply of black slaves from West and North West Africa which contributed to the evolving economic system- but there still is a poor white presence on some Caribbean islands, Barbados for instance, which gave its name to the practice of white enslavement as punishment- to be barbadoed.

[Cyclotron]

Ok guys, I confess. I'm responsible for slavery. Sorry, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Didn't mean to make trouble for anyone.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


However, when you consider the remark I quoted, how absolutely it is phrased, combined with how wildly inaccurate it is, I find it difficult to believe he was not racist in his consideration of blacks.

Inacurate how?, which of the 21 civilizations he chose for study was black?, answer none, now if you know of a creative contribution that a section of blacks in any of those civilizations he mentions contributed something he failled to mention, please share it, if not please learn context before posting.

"When we classify mankind by color, the only one of the primary races...which has not made a creative contribution to any of our twenty-one civilizations is the black race."

Taken out of context anyone is guilty of making racist comments. Lincoln, O W Holmes, almost anyone you care to name.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Why was there no trade in white slaves in the Americas? Even in the 1500s?

Because whites ended up somewhere else as slaves rather than the quite large numbers of indentured time limited slaves of the Americas. Christaians were only allowed o own other christians for a limited term, that was the church law, Pope gave a bull allowing heritics and pagans to be held as slaves by christians, some christains fell under the term heritic, many criminals fell under civil law which allowed terms of indenture.

Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340794690/202-8425544-5374229

Review http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-bo...ok/0333719662/

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Nickiow
Inacurate how?, which of the 21 civilizations he chose for study was black?, answer none, now if you know of a creative contribution that a section of blacks in any of those civilizations he mentions contributed something he failled to mention, please share it, if not please learn context before posting.

"When we classify mankind by color, the only one of the primary races...which has not made a creative contribution to any of our twenty-one civilizations is the black race."

I am rather surprised, but I suppose I should not be.

Toynbee did not say, the only race which did not create a civilization. He said, the only race which did not make a creative contribution to a civilization.

If you want to argue that blacks did not make a creative contribution to Egyptian civilization, take it up with molly bloom.

Because whites ended up somewhere else as slaves rather than the quite large numbers of indentured time limited slaves of the Americas. Christaians were only allowed o own other christians for a limited term, that was the church law, Pope gave a bull allowing heritics and pagans to be held as slaves by christians, some christains fell under the term heritic, many criminals fell under civil law which allowed terms of indenture.

Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0340794690/202-8425544-5374229

Review http://www.socioweb.com/sociology-bo...ok/0333719662/

I'm well aware of the barbary coast white slaves. The Christian angle may have some truth to it, but it certainly did not prevent slaveowners in America from holding black Baptists as slaves for several generations, did it?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking



Toynbee did not say, the only race which did not create a civilization. He said, the only race which did not make a creative contribution to a civilization.

I've just managed to pick up Toynbee's civilization series for £ 5.00 in the Amnesty International charity bookshop in Hammersmith.

Had a good chat about Orwell's essays too...

"Civilization ... is a movement and not a condition, a voyage and not a harbour."

Toynbee

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


I am rather surprised, but I suppose I should not be.

Toynbee did not say, the only race which did not create a civilization. He said, the only race which did not make a creative contribution to a civilization.

Its becoming more clear you have not read Toynbee, with every post you make. Why not post some other examples of his racism?, they should be easy to find, if you have his book, and if he makes them, right?.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
If you want to argue that blacks did not make a creative contribution to Egyptian civilization, take it up with molly bloom.

Why would i do that?, Toynbee was intrested and commented on how governments regulated and used natlanism, and raciscim as mechanisms of control and direction, and looked for trends to support his theory of civilizations falling from internal conflicts created by governments choices of mechanisms, when he wrote in 39 that the SU would collapse from internal conflicts he was using history as a model to predict it.

Now were does Toynbee say that?, he did not. Where he left himself open to a critscm of being racist was by having 26 civilizations and 5 proto failled ones and not include a negro race civilization one amongst them. He did have Hindu and Asians ones however.

Molly has a copy of Toynbee, i have access to a copy, the only one i dont believe to have a copy is you, feel free to prove me wrong and post the qoute you cite in full, just scan in the entire page. And we will see context.

So over Xmas please find examples in his work of racism and provide them in context, or dont except me to pursue this any further.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
I'm well aware of the barbary coast white slaves. The Christian angle may have some truth to it, but it certainly did not prevent slaveowners in America from holding black Baptists as slaves for several generations, did it? .

And im sure you know about Spain haveing slaves in its ships, and English ships haveing press ganged civilians from many nations in theres, both forms of slavery, and that while the Uk was making slavery a thing of the past it was also passing acts that made it legal for fatories and poor houses to work the poor for 16 hours out of 24. Actually i am not sure what you know, but only what you post, now you asked a question and anyone who knows even a little about slavery knows the question revalls a gross ignorance of the subject.

Maryland in 1790 had 35% of the state white population as indentured slaves, when they become free after serving their indenture they were replaced by negros rather than more white indentures.

Baptist church in the USA split on the question of slavery into a Northern and Southern branch, they converted negros in black baptists while in a state of servitude, since both branches of baptists understod duty to state as being render unto caeser etc, they came out of the WBTS unchanged and unpunished for doing so. What they differed over was if caeser was acting wisely by freeing slaves, Southern baptists thought not and Northern though yes. So another facet your unaware of.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by molly bloom


I've just managed to pick up Toynbee's civilization series for £ 5.00 in the Amnesty International charity bookshop in Hammersmith.

Had a good chat about Orwell's essays too...

Sounds like a bargain!. Heres another couple of his works for free...http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/t#a3329

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Nickiow
Its becoming more clear you have not read Toynbee, with every post you make. Why not post some other examples of his racism?, they should be easy to find, if you have his book, and if he makes them, right?.

Why would i do that?, Toynbee was intrested and commented on how governments regulated and used natlanism, and raciscim as mechanisms of control and direction, and looked for trends to support his theory of civilizations falling from internal conflicts created by governments choices of mechanisms, when he wrote in 39 that the SU would collapse from internal conflicts he was using history as a model to predict it.

Now were does Toynbee say that?, he did not. Where he left himself open to a critscm of being racist was by having 26 civilizations and 5 proto failled ones and not include a negro race civilization one amongst them. He did have Hindu and Asians ones however.

Molly has a copy of Toynbee, i have access to a copy, the only one i dont believe to have a copy is you, feel free to prove me wrong and post the qoute you cite in full, just scan in the entire page. And we will see context.

So over Xmas please find examples in his work of racism and provide them in context, or dont except me to pursue this any further.

And im sure you know about Spain haveing slaves in its ships, and English ships haveing press ganged civilians from many nations in theres, both forms of slavery, and that while the Uk was making slavery a thing of the past it was also passing acts that made it legal for fatories and poor houses to work the poor for 16 hours out of 24. Actually i am not sure what you know, but only what you post, now you asked a question and anyone who knows even a little about slavery knows the question revalls a gross ignorance of the subject.

Maryland in 1790 had 35% of the state white population as indentured slaves, when they become free after serving their indenture they were replaced by negros rather than more white indentures.

Baptist church in the USA split on the question of slavery into a Northern and Southern branch, they converted negros in black baptists while in a state of servitude, since both branches of baptists understod duty to state as being render unto caeser etc, they came out of the WBTS unchanged and unpunished for doing so. What they differed over was if caeser was acting wisely by freeing slaves, Southern baptists thought not and Northern though yes. So another facet your unaware of.

1. You don't have a copy either. I have ordered one through Abebooks, a very good online bookseller. It is probably tied up in customs.

2. I am not your b!tch. You don't assign tasks to me.

3. Thanks for your explanation of Toynbee. But I have access to the same websites that you got your information from.

4. This is what he is quoted as saying:

When we classify mankind by color, the only one of the primary races...which has not made a creative contribution to any of our twenty-one civilizations is the black race.

It is incorrect to say that the black race has not made a creative contribution to the Egyption civilization.

Historians who ascribe all of Egyption civilization to non-blacks are racist;
one could possibly misinterpret the evidence if blinded by racism;
or one could choose to misrepresent the evidence for racist reasons;
or one could make a pronouncement in ignorance.
I am certain Toynbee was not ignorant.

There have been a lot of geniuses who had flaws in one aspect or another of their thinking or understanding, based on personal issues. Whatever Toynbee's opinions of the black race (sic) it does not invalidate the rest of his work.

Merry Christmas.

[Jon Miller]

here is an insanely smart black man

http://www.physics.umd.edu/ep/gates/gates.html

JM
(oh, I apparently misread that it was claimed there are no black geniuses)

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


1. You don't have a copy either. I have ordered one through Abebooks, a very good online bookseller. It is probably tied up in customs.

Heres an idea dont qoute out of context from books you have not read, as it gives the impresion your an idiot.

Which part of which Vol would you like me to post from?.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
2. I am not your b!tch. You don't assign tasks to me.

True, but simply asking you to support your wild baseless comments is hardly the same as making you my b!tch.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
3. Thanks for your explanation of Toynbee. But I have access to the same websites that you got your information from.

You do?, how nice, then we are all in agreement on Toynbee, except you then, it only remain for you to support your posistion with something a little better than Im not your btch and not doing it....

So provide a link to where the white slave population of Maryland is to be found. Will it be one the Humanities Edu sites that use his ideas to teach social science?, i can hardly wait for you to provide links supporting what i posted, and continue to be unable to support your own poistion, what will you conclude from that i wonder. Me and the web are wrong and only you hold the secret answer.......

So it will be a cinch to provide more examples of his racicsm right?, but you refuse to be my btch is your stunning retort.

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
4. This is what he is quoted as saying:
[

Good idea to read what he said in context before making even more of an arse of yourself.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Nickiow

Good idea to read what he said in context before making even more of an arse of yourself.

I confess that was my thought when I saw the supposedly 'racist' comment Aristotle made when Mad Viking quoted it.

Had the whole quote been used, in context, then Aristotle's position would have been clearer- the Greek notion of things in proportion, and nothing in excess, rather than a bias against blacks.

[The Mad Viking]

On Aristotle, I fail to see how his antagonism to those who are overly pale somehow voids his antagonism against those who are black. If anything, it offers further support of his xenophobic racism.

Nicki-
As you are very well aware, Toynbee used a lot of words. I now have the abridged version of volumes 1-6. I am not going to look through it to find the context of the quotation I have referred to. If it remains in the abridged version, I will eventually come across it. Although I am currently reading Davies Europe - A History, so it will be a while.

In any case, you are the one making the unsupported argument that the context around Toynbee's quotation will cast a different meaning on the words. So it is up to you to find that context and prove that argument.

It is certainly possible that you are correct. But the quotation is long enough to be quite clear and unequivocal... my analysis of the words remains the same, notwithstanding another barrage of personal insults, thanks-

It is incorrect to say that the black race has not made a creative contribution to the Egyption civilization.

Historians who ascribe all of Egyption civilization to non-blacks are racist;
one could possibly misinterpret the evidence if blinded by racism;
or one could choose to misrepresent the evidence for racist reasons;
or one could make a pronouncement in ignorance.
I am certain Toynbee was not ignorant.