US, not africans, responsible for slavery

[JohnT]

Travel to Lisbon...

So, I make my way to Lisbon, which in those days was one of the busiest and most interesting ports in all of Europe, to see King John, fresh from signing the Treaty of Tordesillas. On the way I meet Sir Knight TMV, who not only volunteers to assist us, but also adds an overarching purpose and meaning to our goal...

"What's up?"
" Nothing really. Whatcha up to?"
"Gonna reinstitutionalize slavery."
"No ****. Huh. Isn't that interesting?"
"How?"
"Well... I was thinking along the same line. And I think that the only way we can do it is if we plan, now, for a breakaway British colony, to become the greatest power of the Twentieth Century by virtue of the fact that it held slaves up until the middle half of the 19th century."
"Brilliant!"
"As the saying goes, you ain't heard nothing yet. What's really cool is that we can then argue that this breakaway British republic... wait... do the British even have a colony over there?"
"In 1494? Are you kidding? They're a good hundred-odd years away at best."
"Well, it won't matter. What we can do is, despite the fact that we'll have been importing slaves for a century prior to a British presence in the New World, for two and a half centuries before the colony rebels... what we can do is pin the blame for slavery on the new nation!"
"Brilliant!... but wait. Won't people notice that the timescale is all messed up and the argument makes no sense? I mean, how can you begin to convince people that a country is responsible for something started over two centuries prior to their founding?"
"Fah! You can argue away anything until you wear 'em down!"
"Brilliant!"

The long-term goal into shape, TMV and myself went to keep our appointment with King John.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Reading it with the "Brilliant" in the accent of the Guiness commercials makes it that much better .


A number of pilgrims were sitting in Amsterdam, despairing that they left prudish Britain for the anything-goes world of the Free Counties of the Netherlands. It was there that Imran met with Ben Kenobi.

"Man, Imran this sucks"
"What, the pot, sex, and heathenism?"
"No, no... I love that part"
"Well Ben, then what's the problem?"
"Well, I really miss looking down on people and telling them what to do."
"I have an idea of where you can go"
"Really? Where?"
"If you keep going West, eventually you will get to a place called America"
"America? Isn't Jamestown there.. the Brits would really crimp my style"
"No, no... a bit more north. A place that actually gets cold in the winter, so you ancestors can learn how NOT to drive in the snow."
"Excellent... and can I be bossy"
"SUPER bossy, but on one condition"
"Oh jeez... here it comes. Ok, I'll bend over."
"No, no, not that... yet. But you do have a nice arse. Have you ever met Harry Potter... no wait, I'm getting sidetracked. The one condition concerns slavery"
"What, like indentured servitude?"
"No, actually slavery, with black Africans."
"Black? What, you mean like Italians?"
"No... darker, but there's more. We aren't going to send them to you... we'll send them south.. to Jamestown and Georgia."
"What? Why? What's my role?"
"Well, we'll need your shipbuilding prowess, and your know it all, I'm the boss attitude is definetly the thing we need. If you rail against slavery, everyone will want it. It'll be the new rage!"
"Oook"
"And then we'll blame slavery on the great new nation you start"
"What?! But we're against it"
"Do you want to be able to boss around people"
"I guess"
"Then, it is done"

[JohnT]

Black? What, you mean like Italians?"

!

[MrFun]

Does this count as the longest surviving thread now?


EDIT: Not in terms of number of posts -- obviously there's a set maximum for that, but in terms of remaining on first or second page for a length of time.

[chequita guevara]

Everyone who was repsonsible for African slavery in the Americas is dead.

[Odin]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everyone who was repsonsible for African slavery in the Americas is dead.

Thank you Mr. Obvious.

[Proteus_MST]

Hm,
although the involvement of the USA is something the USA shouldn´t be proud of, there is something which they should be more ashamed of:
It´s the racial segregation, which even after WW 2 continued (despite seeing what racism can do to a society [i.e. Germany])
and which only slowly changed, mostly not due to the action of white people, but rather due to the pressure the actions of black people put on american society (for example Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King jr. and so on).
Even today there still seems to be racial segregation.
According to Wikipedia in Alabama there even is still a law in existence which dictates that separate schools must exist for white and colored children (and that children aren´t allowed to go to school for another race). Attempts to repeal the law (in 2004) were narrowly defeated.

But rather than be ashamed of things one should better take actions to change them (if they happen during your lifetime).

[MrFun]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everyone who was repsonsible for African slavery in the Americas is dead.

Wow!


I'm going to write this down.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
According to Wikipedia in Alabama there even is still a law in existence which dictates that separate schools must exist for white and colored children (and that children aren´t allowed to go to school for another race). Attempts to repeal the law (in 2004) were narrowly defeated.

Being old enough to remember the desgregation era I doubt this. There might be an old law on the books that never got repealed, but since the Supreme Court struck all of these laws down nearly 50 years ago it just doesn't matter. Besideds if an attempt to repeal such a law was struck down in any state we'd have all heard about it. It would have been front page news throughout the USA for weeks.

[Ramo]

It was in the news. I remember hearing about it.

The Alabama Constitution mandates segregated schools (though it obviously is only symbolic nowadays). There was a proposed Constitutional Amendment in last year's election that had two parts: the removal of this mandate for segregation, and the removal of an Amendment that was passed in response to Brown that say that there is no right to a public education. The Amendment lost by a couple thousand votes, thanks to fine folks like the Christian Coalition.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
We were not discussing slavery in ancient times now were we?

You may have not been but i have.

So when you said"

OK, I'm going to settle this argument once and for all:
All of those who owned slaves now roast in the eighth level of hell.
All of those who sold people into slavery now permanently reside in the ninth level of hell."

You mean only those who held slaves against the will of the slave right?. And are useing debates about the nature of sin and punishment, since those (Dantiasc)concepts were pre dated by thinkers such as Seneca and the stoics, the concept of a universal brotherhood of equal men is older than you may believe.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Furthermore the type of slavery being discussed here was clearly the forced involuntary kind and did not involve any citizens of Israel. My statement stands.

Yes it stands, but you have not defined its meaning very clerary if you wish it only include forced slavery.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Oh, and BTW, I'm not Jewish. Old Testament arguments do not impress me at all. I find that when Christians resort to quotes from the Old Testament as the primary support of their argument they're usually in denial. They're arguing in favor of something that they know is really against Christian teaching, they just can't admit it. Of course I'm not suggesting that you're a Christian.

Not a Christian or Jew, in fact not persuaded that Religion is not actually harmfull to individuals and societys.

Christians who argue that all men are created equal are using OT because thats where it comes from, nowhere else btw.

St Augistine unervisal brotherhood of men teaching pre date modern christian splinter churchs intrpetations, and greek Stoics pre date St Augistine, all come to roost in the OT from what God said in regard to slavery, it was not a sin, that all men were created equal, butr that in society not allo men would have the same freedoms therin.And God set forth the fiorst regulations for who copuld be a slave, and how to treat them and how they could regain their freedom.

So there has always been a christian argument for slavery, just as there as always been one against it, it comes down to that "choice" God gave us, but if we do chose to partake in it he gave the rules for it.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Odin
My God, thhis thread is still going?


As Molly said, racism against blacks in the Modern Period has everything to to with justifying slavery when black slaves were used as labor for plantations, "Racism" in the ancient world would be better described as ethnocentrism IMHO.

Agree. racism is a word that has many meanings and its easy to mis understand when one is using in a manner differnt from the readers perspective, still more so when the writers is 000s of years in the past and using it in still more different manner.

VA Statiutes for indentured slaves contain no differnt punishment for negros untill 1628, when negro and white slaves were punished differently from then on.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
"No, actually slavery, with black Africans."
"Black? What, you mean like Italians?"
"No... darker, but there's more. We aren't going to send them to you... we'll send them south.. to Jamestown and Georgia."

Hernandez v California SCOTUS rulled that Mexicans are "white" and gain all protection of whites under CA statutues.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Hm,
although the involvement of the USA is something the USA shouldn´t be proud of, there is something which they should be more ashamed of:
It´s the racial segregation, which even after WW 2 continued (despite seeing what racism can do to a society [i.e. Germany])
and which only slowly changed, mostly not due to the action of white people, but rather due to the pressure the actions of black people put on american society (for example Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King jr. and so on).
Even today there still seems to be racial segregation.
According to Wikipedia in Alabama there even is still a law in existence which dictates that separate schools must exist for white and colored children (and that children aren´t allowed to go to school for another race). Attempts to repeal the law (in 2004) were narrowly defeated.

But rather than be ashamed of things one should better take actions to change them (if they happen during your lifetime).

You cant regulate how people *think*, but you can regulate to alrge degree how they ineract. US has had a problem with multi culturlism for a considerable period, and from what i see is unlikly to solve it.

[Nickiow]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Being old enough to remember the desgregation era I doubt this. There might be an old law on the books that never got repealed, but since the Supreme Court struck all of these laws down nearly 50 years ago it just doesn't matter. Besideds if an attempt to repeal such a law was struck down in any state we'd have all heard about it. It would have been front page news throughout the USA for weeks.

It could be an old law not repealled, but thats not the only possobility.

For instance, the amendment ending slavery did not get all states ratification untill 1908 or so, Delaware iirc was the last to make slaves free, 28 years from ratification. Slavery was thus not ended lawfully in Dl untill then.

Secession ordinances are routinly held in many states, CA had a close one a few years back to create a new state from parts of itself.