Export of Democracy to Iraq

[Kuciwalker]

Would he be any better had he ordered the use of normal weapons on civilians?

[Drake Tungsten]

Whiskey Pete is a normal weapon.

[Ramo]

I don't really believe the Italian reporters' claim that we used WP against civilians indiscriminately, but it deserves to be investigated.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by binTravkin

Killing Italian operative while attempting to kill indepentant journalist = accidental.

So far the only people who think that the U.S. was trying to kill that self-obsessed communist journalist are her, and now you. If the U.S. was trying to kill her then why didn't they simply shoot her in the head rather than take her and the mortally wounded gentleman to the hospital?

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Odin
The person who ordered the use of that stuff to kill people deserves to be tossed in jail for war crimes. We used CHEMICAL WEAPONS ON CIVILIANS? My God, my God...

not "chemical", "INCENDIARY"


looks like they changed their mind:

US used white phosphorus in Iraq
US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.

"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said.

The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.

BBC defence correspondent Paul Wood says having to retract its denial is a public relations disaster for the US.

Col Venable denied that white phosphorous constituted a banned chemical weapon.

Washington is not a signatory to an international treaty restricting the use of the substance against civilians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4440664.stm

[dannubis]

yeah, a burning insurgent is easier to spot in the dark and eum, shoot him ?

[Cyclotron]

White phosphorous would probably be used in the form of a bomb or explosive - it would be able, as a bomb, to go places where it might be more difficult or less effective to shoot bullets.

[DRoseDARs]

Opps. Even the Pentagon considers white phosphorus as a potential chemical weapon. This just gets uglier...

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_22431050_91r.html

SUMMARY: IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS
CHEMICAL
WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE
IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS. KURDISH RESISTANCE IS LOSING ITS
STRUGGLE AGAINST SADDAM HUSSEIN'S FORCES. KURDISH REBELS AND
REFUGEES' PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS AND PERCEPTIONS ARE PROVIDED.

TEXT: 1. DURING APRIL 1991, THE SOURCE TELEPHONED
BROTHER (SUBSOURCE) < (b)(1) sec 1.3(a)(4) >< (b)(7)(D) >

. DURING THIS PHONE CONVERSATION,
THE SOURCE WAS ABLE TO OBTAIN THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION ON THE
PRESENT SITUATION IN KURDISH AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN
BORDERS --
A. IRAQ'S POSSIBLE EMPLOYMENT OF PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL
WEAPONS -- IN LATE FEBRUARY 1991, FOLLOWING THE COALITION FORCES'
OVERWHELMING VICTORY OVER IRAQ, KURDISH REBELS STEPPED UP THEIR
STRUGGLE AGAINST IRAQI FORCES IN NORTHERN IRAQ. DURING THE BRUTAL
CRACKDOWN THAT FOLLOWED THE KURDISH UPRISING, IRAQI FORCES LOYAL
TO
PRESIDENT SADDAM ((HUSSEIN)) MAY HAVE POSSIBLY USED WHITE
PHOSPHOROUS (WP) CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST KURDISH REBELS AND THE
POPULACE IN ERBIL (GEOCOORD:3412N/04401E) (VICINITY OF IRANIAN
BORDER) AND DOHUK (GEOCOORD:3652N/04301E) (VICINITY OF IRAQI
BORDER) PROVINCES, IRAQ. THE WP CHEMICAL WAS DELIVERED BY
ARTILLERY ROUNDS AND HELICOPTER GUNSHIPS (NO FURTHER INFORMATION
AT
THIS TIME). APPARENTLY, THIS TIME IRAQ DID NOT USE NERVE GAS AS
THEY DID IN 1988, IN HALABJA (GEOCOORD:3511N/04559E), IRAQ,
BECAUSE
THEY WERE AFRAID OF POSSIBLE RETALIATION FROM THE UNITED STATES
(U.S.) LED COALITION. THESE REPORTS OF POSSIBLE WP CHEMICAL WEAPON
ATTACKS SPREAD QUICKLY AMONG THE KURDISH POPULACE IN ERBIL AND
DOHUK. AS A RESULT, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KURDS FLED FROM THESE
TWO AREAS AND CROSSED THE IRAQI BORDER INTO TURKEY. IN RESPONSE TO
THIS, TURKISH AUTHORITIES ESTABLISHED SEVERAL REFUGEE CENTERS
ALONG
THE TURKISH-IRAQI BORDER. THE SITUATION OF KURDISH REFUGEES IN
THESE CENTERS IS DESPERATE -- THEY HAVE NO SHELTERS, FOOD, WATER,
AND MEDICAL FACILITIES (NO FURTHER INFORMATION AT THIS TIME).

[Patroklos]

Obviously we should purge all chemicals from our inventory.

Battle Axes

[GePap]

It seems a simple question to ask: is WP covered under Chemical weapons conventions and are its uses regulated? If so, then possibly something illegal was done. If not, then nothing illegal occured.

As for the annoying "dead is dead" crap. Yes, dead is dead. But any moron knows that we do rank deaths, or how people die.

If "dead is dead" was a philosophy anyone actually cared about we wouldn't be wasting money on this silly war on terrorism since terrorism kills maybe, what? 10,000 a year globally, on a BAD YEAR, while AIDS killed at least a million last year. Yet we have spent at least 200 Billion on a "war on terrorism" in the last 4 years-how much on AIDS?

It seems rather patently, clearly, undeniablty obvious then, that "dead" isn't just "dead".

[Kuciwalker]

WP causes thermal burns, not chemical. When something burns in air at > 1000 degrees, there isn't time for chemical burns to occur.

[DRoseDARs]

Well, feel free to inform the Pentagon of you late-breaking discovery...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Well, feel free to inform the Pentagon of you late-breaking discovery...

Oh, and as I was going to post, the issue there is use against civilians. Since our troops don't use it as a wide-area weapon (and hence against civilians), its use isn't contrary to international law even in spirit.

[Dracon II]

I think it is erroneous to compare US combat policy in Iraq with the tactics and practices of terrorists, Nazis, Soviets etc. America itself has the rhetoric, ideology and morality against which its activities can be justly measured. I believe that of all the nations of the world, America is the one with the greatest resources and capacities for self-criticism by measures originating from its own history, experiences and myths.

Besides, it would not be fair to compare it with terrorists or Nazis.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
WP causes thermal burns, not chemical. When something burns in air at > 1000 degrees, there isn't time for chemical burns to occur.

The kind of injuries caused is irrelevant to the definition of something as a chemical weapon or not. Napalm has been banned even if it causes burns.

And as for the "law" issue, the question is whether WP can be used a sa weapon under any circumstances. Any weapon can be banned. If someone found the US was using explosive rounds for the M16A2's, then that would be a violation of the laws of war, even if not a single civilian was even hurt.