Long live the Great October Revoluion!

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb

See Az's reply.

Yes, he's also right. Also note how I deemphasized land a bit in my post.

[Serb]

Originally posted by vomitus

I'm glad you live better outside of communism. It's a shame that the rest of Russia is still trying to recover from 80 years of oppression. These things don't fix themselves overnight.

What Russia is trying now is to recover from 10 years of wild capitalism/looting.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb
What Russia is trying now is to recover from 10 years of wild capitalism/looting.

It's actually a bit of both.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


Yes, he's also right. Also note how I deemphasized land a bit in my post.

Then I don't see a reason for your attack vs. me.

[Saras]

Me neither. Habit, maybe?

[Serb]

You really should get a more healthy habits. Start smoking for example.

[Saras]

Oh but I did restart smoking this summer :|

[Serb]

Welcome aboard.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az

The point, my obtuse friend, is that the Russia didn't have even the basics of a capitalist system yet the Soviet system ceased to function. If you have no capitalist system and you have no communist system then what do you have? Not much; certainly not much investors want. Do you think this would effect employment growth or tax receipts?

That's a truck load of **** - Private land ownership is almost meaningless - ~90% of land in Israel is government owned, for example, doesn't mean that Israel doesn't have a full market economy. What was flawed in Russia was clarity in courts, a fair code of laws, and the modus operandi of most players in russian capitalism - slash and burn economics.

Saras said a vigorously enforced system of property rights. Israel has certainly had that, and land ownership by the Jewish National Fund (not a state institution, formally) doesnt contradict that.

Oh, and most of the agriculturally valuable "public" land in Israel has historically been on long term lease to Kibbutzim and Moshavim, which certainly treated those leaseholds as their property, and would defend their rights in courts if necessary.

[Odin]

Serb,

The break up of the USSR did not HAVE to result in the disasterous firesale privitization that f*cked you guys over. What happened was that you guys had the awful coincidence of the Neo-liberal market fundimentalists having the hight of thier popularity the same time the USSR fell appart. If people had stuck to Keynesiansm, that crap wouldn't of happened to such a degree.

[Az]

Israel has certainly had that, and land ownership by the Jewish National Fund (not a state institution, formally) doesnt contradict that.

THe JNF held a fraction of the land - and is also controlled by the government. And btw, since the JNF is part of the World Zionist Agency, and that is subservient to the State of Israel, this point is void. The Majority of the land belonged to the sovereign - once the turks, later the brits, and now the State of Israel - administered by the Israel Land Authority.

Oh, and most of the agriculturally valuable "public" land in Israel has historically been on long term lease to Kibbutzim and Moshavim, which certainly treated those leaseholds as their property, and would defend their rights in courts if necessary.

Of course- since these lands were leased to them in long term contracts - they have certain rights in court over them. These lands are still iowned by the state of Israel.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Odin
Serb,

The break up of the USSR did not HAVE to result in the disasterous firesale privitization that f*cked you guys over. What happened was that you guys had the awful coincidence of the Neo-liberal market fundimentalists having the hight of thier popularity the same time the USSR fell appart. If people had stuck to Keynesiansm, that crap wouldn't of happened to such a degree.

So keynesianism does not need a functioning legal system?

[Montesquieu]

Communism is pure utopia. Marx's books were admirable, but there is no way to completely destroy private property. We should try to reconciliate state property and private property.

And the "real" communism was not like the original marxist idea. Marx said there would be no state at all in the communist system, but there was always the onipotent and oppressive URSS state secret police and institutions that clearly made Russia a national state. Really, trying to impose communism to a country is like subjecting it easily to brutal dictatorships. Private property is very important for a free people.

The true communism is an utopia. The real communist regime is nothing but a totalitarian state based on violence.

[Montesquieu]

The break up of the USSR did not HAVE to result in the disasterous firesale privitization that f*cked you guys over. What happened was that you guys had the awful coincidence of the Neo-liberal market fundimentalists having the hight of thier popularity the same time the USSR fell appart. If people had stuck to Keynesiansm, that crap wouldn't of happened to such a degree.

I couldn't agree even more. There should have been a slow transition to a private property system, but these guys simply made everything private without any warning. Oh, yes. Yesterday I didn't have to pay for my public school, but now it is different . Come on Russia, only disasters. Most disasters are only the result of bad planning. The soviets screwed up things really bad, but Russia could be very well now (or could be at least progressing) if it weren't for the disastrous economic policies those neo-liberal fanatics implemented there.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Odin
Serb,

The break up of the USSR did not HAVE to result in the disasterous firesale privitization that f*cked you guys over. What happened was that you guys had the awful coincidence of the Neo-liberal market fundimentalists having the hight of thier popularity the same time the USSR fell appart. If people had stuck to Keynesiansm, that crap wouldn't of happened to such a degree.

It's way more complex than that and it's "Keynesism", btw.