Bush Administration wants an exception for CIA to commit torture

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by child of Thor
I think most of us know already that both our countries secret services have and do use torture methods to extract information. Hand on heart we know it goes on, but publically is denounced. IRA years? South America etc?

I think the thinking might be that as we do it already, and have it done back to us, then why not remove the red tape that makes it harder for our countries to get the answers they want out of a suspect?

That's pretty much what it is.

Torture is being practiced by our government agencies at a systematic level. It's not just a bunch of isolated incidents or a couple of bad apples. This includes both "real torture" , and also the "torture lite." "Torture lite" is tactics that DanS and Drake are desparatley hoping is practiced 100% of the time, because it can be argued as not being torture. (Even though it clearly is, and clearly violates the Geneva Conventions).

But to try and change the laws to sanction it--to ENCOURAGE it--takes it to alarming levels that borderline on madness.

We tell the world how bad other leaders are because of their mistreatment of people, we go in, clear those places, and then...torture and mistreat people.

What's most disgusting is McCain was tortured as a POW.

This is the most incompetent Administration in our history.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This keeps getting more and more strange from my POV.

OMG! You still have a small part of your give-a-**** that could possibly be functioning!?

[Patroklos]

The bill is purposely too vague. Using its verbage there is absolutlely nothing that can't be made torture.

Nothing wrong with asking the bill authors to say what they mean.

[Lul Thyme]

Originally posted by Ted Striker

We tell the world how bad other leaders are because of their mistreatment of people, we go in, clear those places, and then...torture and mistreat people.
.

that's the main point in my opinion.
Most of America's foreign policy is based on America having the moral high ground somehow (Take out Saddam the evil torturer...).
While this is already arguable, recently it is becoming more and more laughable.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
The bill is purposely too vague. Using its verbage there is absolutlely nothing that can't be made torture.

Nothing wrong with asking the bill authors to say what they mean.

Exempting the CIA from actions that are prohibited under international law (using the same 'verbage', which, btw the US SIGNED in a treaty and in another part of the bill would limit interrogation to what is IN the Army Field Manual) is asking the authors to say what they mean? I don't think so.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun



OMG! You still have a small part of your give-a-**** that could possibly be functioning!?

My POV was stated here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=139458

[Patroklos]

Exempting the CIA from actions that are prohibited under international law (using the same 'verbage', which, btw the US SIGNED in a treaty) is asking the authors to say what they mean? I don't think so.

So you agree that the bill allows anything to be considered torture.

[DinoDoc]

He DanS'd you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
So you agree that the bill allows anything to be considered torture.

Absolutely not. People who argue that (and many have tried) are completely ignorant of international law.

[Patroklos]

So what exactly does degrading mean?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
So what exactly does degrading mean?

You have a dictionary, right?

Anyway, one of the cases which finds degrading treatment has been undertaken is Ireland v. United Kingdom, in the European Court of Human Rights. Basically the UK was treating IRA prisoners in similar ways we were treating Abu Gharib and, it seems, Guantanamo Bay prisoners:

.The techniques were also degrading since they were such as to arouse in their victims feelings of fear, anguish and inferiority capable of humiliating and debasing them and possibly breaking their physical or moral resistance.

And interestingly, the Israeli Supreme Court (no slouch) said about inhuman, cruel, and degrading treatment:

In the end result, the legality of an investigation is deduced from the propriety of its purpose and from its methods. Thus, for instance, sleep deprivation for a prolonged period, or sleep deprivation at night when this is not necessary to the investigation time wise may be deemed a use of an investigation method which surpasses the least restrictive means.

Israel's Supreme Court has banned prolonged cuffing, loud music, deprivation of sleep, and position abuse under the international standards.

Both quotes come from:

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/detainees/prohibits_torture.htm

[Drake Tungsten]

God forbid we attempt to break the resistance of those we interrogate.

[Ninot]

Alls I know is the kinds of interogation i heard about, that made news as borderline torture, sound like degrading and torturous to me.

Canada shoulda arrested Bush on war crimes when we had the chance.

[Patroklos]

Yeah, we should just abandon prisoners as sources of information. I just say pictures of Gitmo form a sailor freind of mine that did 6 months as a guard there. They live better than I do now. But according to this Bill, a pent house at the Ritz could be torture.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Yeah, we should just abandon prisoners as sources of information. I just say pictures of Gitmo form a sailor freind of mine that did 6 months as a guard there. They live better than I do now. But according to this Bill, a pent house at the Ritz could be torture.

Yeah, because that's exactly what the cases say .

Please come back to this discussion when you rejoin Earth and stop making up crap. Unless you live in stress positions and forced sleep deprivation that is?