Bush Administration wants an exception for CIA to commit torture

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Atahualpa


Well, if you're happy with _any_ information... that's exactly what you'll get... if torture is anything, then a guarantee that you'll get what you want to hear... where's the bomb!? Where's the ****ing bomb!?!? *frying him with 10000 volts* Eh?!? - In a warehouse in New York, 9th Avenue, warehous is titled "gunz", the code to enter is "911" on the number pad, but you have to wait at least 3 secs for each number, if you type to fast, automatic machine guns will pop up and kill you -

Some of the info obtained from someone under duress might be untrue. The veracity of any info obtained that way is easy enough to check however. You, on the other hand, will obtain no info and are therefore doomed to failure. So off to the song-circle with you, the other hippies are waiting.

How can you make a martyr less of a martyr if you torture him?

I dont care if a few bastards become martyrs. I care that they dont make martyrs of my family and friends and to that end I'm not squeamish about doing what is sometimes necessary. Its hypocrisy to pretend that it isnt sometimes necessary and to condemn the men that have to do a dirty job.

[Ted Striker]

It's not just "hippies" that disagree with you Spencer, it's very educated military commanders that say what you are condoning is outright foolish and impractical.

ZOMG but you are such a hard core tough guy!!!

[Flip McWho]

Also you'd think somebody thats willing to die for their cause should also be willing to take some pain. They were gonna die afterall. Its just a little while longer before they get to their heaven.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Trying to distract the debate by making stupid links

Hm? I'm pointing out the prejudice inherent to his very vocabulary. I don't actually care what he has to say, from my experience with his other posts.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ted Striker

Uhhh...it ALREADY IS ILLEGAL under the Geneva Conventions.

Thus the legal cart wheels the administration has been doing so that it can claim the GC doesn't apply or that what they're doing is not torture. I will say that some of the official polices are or are not torture depending upon a point of view. It is clear that the ambiguity the administration has created has lead some people to think that clear events of torture were some how allowed or winked at. That is wrong and creating a clear written standard will prevent that from ever happening again in the future.

We need McCain's bill if only to have any moral standing to object when our guys are subjected to the same treatment.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Also you'd think somebody thats willing to die for their cause should also be willing to take some pain. They were gonna die afterall. Its just a little while longer before they get to their heaven.

Most of these people turn out to be brainwashed cowards who break eventually even without torture. There are nontorture tactics which police the world over use to trip up, conduse, and ultimately get people to confess. The important part is to isolate the suspects from each other then interogate each of them after which you start comparing the stories each one told. You keep playing this game and you keep asking them different questions until you catch them in a lie. Most people will eventually give up the ghost.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Thus the legal cart wheels the administration has been doing so that it can claim the GC doesn't apply or that what they're doing is not torture. I will say that some of the official polices are or are not torture depending upon a point of view. It is clear that the ambiguity the administration has created has lead some people to think that clear events of torture were some how allowed or winked at. That is wrong and creating a clear written standard will prevent that from ever happening again in the future.

We need McCain's bill if only to have any moral standing to object when our guys are subjected to the same treatment.

EXACTLY

Even if they haven't gotten a clear cut picture of what is or is not torture, they have created such an ambiguous picture that it's easier to get away with things in a confusing environment.

This is a common tactic used by lawyers of rich people who have clearly broken the law, but their attorneys are so good at maniplating the situation that the case becomes confused.

[Flip McWho]

Oerdin -

Ahh yeah makes sense. Its amazing how you can have the resolution to die but not the resolution to handle the pain till they die.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
It's not just "hippies" that disagree with you Spencer, it's very educated military commanders that say what you are condoning is outright foolish and impractical.

ZOMG but you are such a hard core tough guy!!!

Who?

[Ted Striker]

Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC)
Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA)
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA)
Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN)
Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN)
General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN)
Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (Ret. USA)
General Merrill McPeak (Ret. USAF)
Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USAF Nat. Guard)
General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA)

http://www.essentialliberties.com/archives/000901.php

[Ted Striker]

Oh, and Colin Powell and his Chief of Staff

Nobody important really

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Most of these people turn out to be brainwashed cowards who break eventually even without torture. There are nontorture tactics which police the world over use to trip up, conduse, and ultimately get people to confess. The important part is to isolate the suspects from each other then interogate each of them after which you start comparing the stories each one told. You keep playing this game and you keep asking them different questions until you catch them in a lie. Most people will eventually give up the ghost.

This isnt a police interrogation. We're not trying to catch them in a lie and we're not prosecuting them for a crime. If we catch someone who knows where Zarqawi, Zawahiri, or bin laden are located, we want that info. Catching them in a lie is unlikely to break them unless they think there are severe consequences to that lie.

[DanS]

So it still comes down to whether or not there are particularly effective interrogation techniques that skate the edge of abuse or torture.

Again, I was under the impression that torture and abuse are ineffective interrogation techniques. Is that impression untrue?

[Ted Striker]

It doesn't come down to that, and that's the problem

Neither are effective and neither are legal

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC)
Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA)
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA)
Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN)
Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN)
General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN)
Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (Ret. USA)
General Merrill McPeak (Ret. USAF)
Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USAF Nat. Guard)
General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA)

http://www.essentialliberties.com/archives/000901.php

Very good. Aside from the 'knights in shining armor nonsense', I note that their major argument is that our 'avoidance' of the Geneva conventions (not that I accept that terrorists are entitled to such conventions) puts our own soldiers at risk. Given that the scum we are discussing have cut throats, beheaded men and women civilians, then published the videotapes of their atrocities, just what treatment do these commanders expect for our soldiers at their hands?

I also note that some are indeed distinguished commanders. I have to wonder, though, would they have refused to use intel that was gained by such means in previous wars. Methinks their soapboxes are a little precarious.