I took a loan

[Az]

I do promote this, but not by punishing the ones who drive cars.

I want everyone to have free beer and candy. But in reality, you have to pay for it. Gas taxes are the way.

[Pekka]

So people who can't use mass transit should pay for your bus fairs?

[laurentius]

I agree with you Pekka we should both lower taxes and get better services. In reality it seldom works that way. You have to get the money from somewhere you know.

Your solution sounds pretty OK but I would add yo it tax increases on driving inside areas with working mass transportation systems. Its true that its wrong to have flat tax on gas. But you have to bear in mind that the Greens are a burgeoise party. They dont seem to mind the real costs or alternative costs of their policies most of the time.

It seems we have found some kind of syntesis here. And it happens to go pretty much along the lines of the Left Wing Alliance policies.

[Az]

The size of Israel and Finland is a bit different though, you can't have shuttles all over Finland that would cost like ten times the national budget.

Not all over finland, but through cities. Noone drives half the country to work in finland, I presume.

Originally posted by Pekka
So people who can't use mass transit should pay for your bus fairs?

no, silly - higher gas taxes will provide for shuttles through routes that otherwise weren't possible financially, increase bus frequency, etc., and will allow for those poor people whoe "couldn't" take the bus, to take the bus.

I don't use the bus, I use my car - because of low frequency of busses. But I don't bemoan my car and gas taxes - I bemoan that they aren't used for public transport.

[Pekka]

Hey I don't mind if we prioritize somehow the car tax thing. I don't feel that bad about idea where the mass transit is viable solution, that .. well let's put it like this, the ones who don't have that option (mass transit), they shouldn't suffer from this too much, so they should have lower taxes on it. If we can't lower the price on gas, we should lower their taxes on their car.

If you are resident of Helsinki and downtown area, well, I could see a situation where that person would not get the tax cut.

If there could be a system, where you would get to.. kind of reliably record your car usage, as to how important it is to you (going to work, the necessary stuff), then you get high priority. If you don't really need it and mass transit would take care of you in real life, then they wouldn't be very high priority.

This would be kind of.. I don't see that as the BEST option, there are injustices there but in the name of how it could work, then, if that's the only thing we can do, I might support it. As long as the mass transit starts working properly, and those who need to use their cars can use it without paying up their butts every time Dubya says something.

[Az]

problem is, you can't connect geography and gas tax. It just doesn't work. What you may do, is give people like laplanders or something, tax breaks on new car purchase. problem is, that many morons will use it to buy a bigger car for no reason.

[Pekka]

we don't have the whole big car thing in here, it's not fashionable. I don't feel that's an issue, a future scenario we should be afraid of, and if it should become one, hey, tax the big cars then.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Az
problem is, you can't connect geography and gas tax. It just doesn't work.

Why not?

[laurentius]

Yes we need monitoring, statistics, analysis and it would still be very hard to come up with a just solution. Still I dont care if the people living in the Downtown Helsinki wouldnt get the tax cuts. They can very well walk everywhere worth going to and pay for the few times they use their cars in a month to go to play golf for example. I lived in 00100/Helsinki 10 myself for the last 22 years so I know what I'm talking about.

I would see this situation where gas prices are obviously too high only temporary. There will be a solution to this, but I dont think lowering the costs of more private driving having anything to do with it. It would create a cycle where lower taxes on new cars would increase private driving along with lower gas taxes it would only create more half empty cars on the roads.

[Az]

Why not?

It creates plenty of ridiculous cases, for example, people driving farther to get cheap gas, making completely useless trips if the entire economy is considered, but trips that are actually worthwhile for them.

competing tax rates create plenty of wierd, and frustrating cases - people living farther than they could actually afford in terms of housing prices, only to enjoy lower tax rates, not real housing demand issues.

[Kuciwalker]

It's still implementable, and you can avoid those ridiculous cases with some sort of gradient.

[Pekka]

Az, damn, so now you want to object people from living where they want to? Listen, you're still saved but don't push your luck! This is "you should live how I want you to live, or it'll get so expensive only few can!".. Nice Az, nice..

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Pekka
Az, damn, so now you want to object people from living where they want to? Listen, you're still saved but don't push your luck! This is "you should live how I want you to live, or it'll get so expensive only few can!".. Nice Az, nice..

No problem that people should live where they want, they just have to pay the bill for doing that.

[Az]

It's still implementable, and you can avoid those ridiculous cases with some sort of gradient.

Perhaps, though I am not sure what will the gradient qualifier be. Perhaps population density...

I generally don't get the whine, I must say. It's not like they're driving american-style gas-guzzlers, and are suddenly hit with a gas-tax spike, that makes you people moan. And AFAIS, it's mostly pekka, who's way to the right wing of most Suomilanders.

Az, damn, so now you want to object people from living where they want to? Listen, you're still saved but don't push your luck! This is "you should live how I want you to live, or it'll get so expensive only few can!".. Nice Az, nice..

damn, you capitalists and your concept of "money" prevent me from living how I really want to live. goddamn opressors.

[Pekka]

Sure, I'm just not sure how far Az would want to go. I think he's into "let's all live in a big **** off box, same amount of squares, same rent, and be all happy!".

I'm more into individual freedom. And paying for it, but reasonably. Not punishment taxes of the ideal world of living in a big **** off box, I mean if you differ from it.