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  • Originally posted by DaShi
    Protestants allow their pets and other animals to have souls, yet cruelly slaughter them anyway.
    ?
    You guys have only one word for soul, right? We have three - a ruach, a neshumah, and a nefesh. IIRC, an animal has a ruach (simple breath of life) and a neshumah (intention, though) but not a nefesh.

    heres one view

    "When a person is born his Nefesh enters him. If he is adequately rectified through his actions, his Ruach will enter him at the end of his thirteenth year when he becomes a "complete person." His Neshamah will enter him only when he completes his twentieth year, as it says in the Zohar (Mishpatim 94b). (Sha'ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 2)

    As it is well known, there are five levels of soul (from top to bottom): Yechidah, Chiyah, Neshamah, Ruach, and Nefesh. They correspond to the Ten Sefiros, and therefore, like the Ten Sefiros they act as filters for the light of G-d to reach us without destroying us physically. It is the level of Nefesh that acts as the spiritual interface between the spiritual and the physical, as the posuk indicates:

    For the Nefesh of the flesh is in the blood . . . (Vayikra 17:11)

    Often referred to as the animal soul, the Nefesh is the minimal amount of spiritual energy necessary to keep a body alive and functioning on auto-pilot. The extent to which man has perpetrated evil and acted in an unG-dly manner shows just how little an impact the Nefesh can have on a person's spiritual consciousness. A baby emerges into the world accomplishing very little other than just trying to stay alive.
    "

    this is kabbalist, and doesnt sound quite like I recall from other sources.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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    • What about Pa-Wraiths?

      In my backup religion, there is only one soul, period.
      “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
      "Capitalism ho!"

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      • Originally posted by DaShi
        What about Pa-Wraiths?

        In my backup religion, there is only one soul, period.
        well thats your guys problem, I think. Why everybody from Ben kenobi to Gepap is looking for a bright shining line, and not recognizing gradual development. Its a civilizational attitude. I mean it helped you guys to develop formal logic and mathematics and stuff, for which we forever grateful, but it leaves you lacking on certain spiritual and moral distinctions.
        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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        • Originally posted by Jon Miller
          brainwaves mean that a functioning brain is in existance
          But if that's not on a level to connote experience, it's meaningless. Unless the fetus is thinking--which brainwaves don't necessitate (like Terry Schiavo), the brainwaves don't substantially change the nature of the fetus. Hence it's still an arbitrary distinction.

          Lotm: I don't give a special priviledge to humans, and I see no reason to do for anything other than religious reasons. So yeah, if we can slaughter a thinking cow for meat, I don't see a moral problem with terminating a non-thinking fetus.
          Tutto nel mondo è burla

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          • so basically, if I understand you right Boris

            you are similiar to Che, in that you think that some expereince (for Che, those of relationships) is what defines human

            if that is the case, as I said to Che, I dont' feel up to the argument right now..

            one thing though, during a Coma you don't normally think, and you can come out of it (my dad did after 9 or so months, and they can go on for as long as 20 years..)

            Jon Miller
            (except that I favor purely physical definition)
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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            • Originally posted by Jon Miller
              one thing though, during a Coma you don't normally think, and you can come out of it (my dad did after 9 or so months, and they can go on for as long as 20 years..)
              Now we're going to rehash the Terry Schiavo case, I suppose. She was, after all, in a coma, or coma-likte state, and she was allowed to die.

              There are different kinds of coma, and there's also a difference between a being we know was thinking lapsing into a coma that isn't brain damaging and a being that we don't know has been thinking (and, indeed, medical science strongly believing it isn't thinking) being in that initial state. Horrible language, but I think the point is clear.

              I'm not of the "It's a parasite" clan, so I do think late-term abortions for reasons other than the health of the mother/problems with the baby are on dubious territory. If I was convinced that the banning of such procedures in the late term wasn't also trying to hamper them in other conditions, I'd probably support some restrictions. But so far, that's not what the anti-abortion legislation has offered.
              Tutto nel mondo è burla

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              • I'm loving the raging anger, the high emotion, the garbled misinformation and the frenzied retractions going on in this thread.

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                • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                  Biological definitions exclude the young of any species since they recognise that in order for the species to propagate, requires that they be sustained by their parents.

                  Now, if you are relying on a more broader definition, then why shouldn't we kill 25 year olds who live and sponge off their parents since they are parasites too?


                  This is dumber than the slavery comparison. By several orders of magnitude.

                  Congratulations.
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                  • Originally posted by Jon Miller


                    so you can be human and not have human rights?

                    that seems to me to be fundamentally wrong, and ideas similiar to that could allow things like slavery...

                    it is human, therefore it is wrong to murder it
                    First mistake. You used the word murder. Murder is unlawfull killing.

                    how is it not biological?

                    we are talking about a human beings

                    and as I said, in america we kill babies who are independently viable.. we stick in little things to chop them up, and then suck them out with a vacuum...

                    it is disgusting, it is inhumane, it is monsterous, as bad as what was done by the Aztecs or the Romans

                    Jon Miller
                    And why was what the Romans and Aztecs did bad? Greco-Romam society lasted many, many centuries, and could have kept going on doing what it was doing.

                    It is not a biological arguement cause biology doesn't care.

                    Its an arguement of values only. I simply do not grant a fetus the same values as a being that has been born. That simple.
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                    • Imagine being all safe and warm in the womb of your mother and then being ripped from it? Mothers from hell...
                      Long time member @ Apolyton
                      Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                      • Isn't that called birth?
                        Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                        • Being born is not what I meant by 'ripped'.
                          Long time member @ Apolyton
                          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                          • C-section?
                            Speaking of Erith:

                            "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                            • No thanks I already ate.
                              Long time member @ Apolyton
                              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                              • You made an mp3 out of it?
                                Speaking of Erith:

                                "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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