Do you want Turkey in the EU?

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Colon
Seriously, why assume there's any single "iron" criterium to be considered as European, and not a combination of factors? Turkey has a toehold in the geographic sense, and the remained also lies right next Europe; it shares a history ever since the Roman age (maybe even before); it is a secular country that's moving well towards EU standards of government; and it already has significant economic, political, cultural and sportive ties with EU current members.

I may add that the Ottoman Turks also have had a history of separating religion and government. There was sharia law for the Islamic population, but not so amongst the populations of other faiths. Moreover, the Ottoman state was largely developed along secular lines and it did not attempt to forcefully convert its subjects to Islam. Hence the Turks do not have a history of theocracy (unlike many Arab countries) and I seriously doubt Islamist extremists pose a danger to the secular state.

Sound perspective

[Saras]

Hassle-free travel to Turkey

Real estate prices over the coming 10 years (mark my word)

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Turkey's improvements in human rights and democratisation are deemed sufficient by the EU Commission to start the membership negotiations. However, I agree that there's still room for improvement.

With regard to "past actions", past actions of past members wer somehow no criterion for membership, and it was not put as one before Turkey neither 40 years ago, nor now in the Negotiation Framework Agreement.

i don't think anyone is saying that turkey hasn't improved in recent years, but at the same time no one can deny that turkey has an awful long way to go to come up to 'european' standards. there are still displaced villagers (around 250,000 IIRC), who have been unable to return to their homes since the early 90s. freedom of speech is also a major issue, to cite but one example, there is an author being currently prosecuted for writing about the armenian genocide, which is rather like a german being prosecuted for writing about the holocaust. such things need to addressed before turkey can become a member.

Turkey will only recognise a united Cyprus that would finally come to grips with the fact that Turks are not a minority to be granted rights to, but equal partners in a federal/confederal structure.

then turkey may be in for a very long wait for EU membership. turkey MUST recognise cyprus, before it becomes a member, hopefully that will come with a lasting agreement by the cypriots on the future of their island, but if it doesn't then turkey may have to grin and bear it. you can't expect to join our club if you refuse to recognise one of the existing members.

Turkey is already in a full fledged customs union with the EU since 1995, way before and in a more complete manner than many if not all the new 10 members of the EU.

i stand corrected

i'm sure i remember reading about some new agreement (possibly a union which includes the 10 new members?) i'm also pretty certain that turkey will not fulfil their obligations when it comes to cypriot shipping and goods.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by C0ckney
then turkey may be in for a very long wait for EU membership. turkey MUST recognise cyprus, before it becomes a member, hopefully that will come with a lasting agreement by the cypriots on the future of their island, but if it doesn't then turkey may have to grin and bear it. you can't expect to join our club if you refuse to recognise one of the existing members.

Actually, it's not as straightforward a case as, for example, if Turkey didn't recognise Poland and wanted to become a member of the EU.

Firstly, no country was ever allowed in before sorting out its issues with neighbours (as in the case when Hungary and Romania had to settle their disputes). However, Cyprus was somehow kept exempt from this otherwise well-observed rule.

Secondly, the founding treaties of the "Republic of Cyprus" forbids "Cyprus" to become party to international organisations in which both Turkey and Greece are parties to. That was also blatantly ignored.

Thirdly, many in the EU assumed that the Cyprus issue will somehow solve itself, and expected the issue to be solved by the acceptance by both sides of the UN plan of 2004. That plan was fully supported and endorsed by the EU. But when the Greek Cypriots rejected it, they were rewarded with membership and the Turkish Cypriots were punished with further isolation for their enhtusiasm. The EU didn't even fulfill its declared promise of financial aid to Turkish Cyprus, due to, surprise, the Greek Cypriot veto.

Cyprus is a very complicated international issue, and it is totally inexplicable how the EU just let itself get dragged in it, despite its obvious reluctance to get involved. It's exasperating that the EU, after all these and with an absolute lack of political responsibility, can demand from Turkey "recognition of Cyprus", because "they are our member now". Doh!

i'm sure i remember reading about some new agreement (possibly a union which includes the 10 new members?) i'm also pretty certain that turkey will not fulfil their obligations when it comes to cypriot shipping and goods.

I guess what you remember is the additional protocol to the Ankara Agreement of 1963, the legal basis and beginning of Turkey's road to the EU.

IIRC, that agreement is about all aspects of the current state of relations between the sides, including the customs union. That agreement was signed by Turkey and an EEC of 6 countries. So, according to the EEC/EC/EU procedures, whenever an enlargement took place on the European side, an additional protocol needs to be annexed to the Ankara agreement in order to clarify that it now applies to the EEC/EC/EU as expanded by the newcomers.

This was apparently how it happened in all the previous European enlargements, and the latest one also required one such protocol. The problem was of course, due to obvious reason about which I complained above, Turkey didn't recognise a "Cyprus". So it ratified the additional protocol, declaring simultaneously this does not amount to a formal recognition of the said entity.

A more immediate consequence of this current state of affairs is that, as part of its non-recognition of "Cyprus", Turkey also does not allow "Cypriot" ships and planes to enter Turkey. That creates practical complications about the application of the customs union.

I think at one point Turkey will have to drop at least this limitation, again without officially recognising the defunct "Republic of Cyprus".

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Colon
It's on a separate continental plate, that's why there's this mountain range in the Urals.

Originally posted by Sava
Earth science 100

pwned twice in one thread che...

quit while you are ahead (errr... or before you get further behind I should say)

Sava, does it hurt to be sooooo wrong.

[Cyclotron]

It would seem by that map that, possibly, the people with the real geographic problem for the EU are the Cypriots. Or maybe Malta.

[Sandman]

Or indeed, the many overseas territories belonging to EU members.

[RGBVideo]

It's on a separate continental plate, that's why there's this mountain range in the Urals.

Che beat me to it.

Urals is a very, very old mountain range; that's why it's so flat (altough large) and doesn't have any sharp peaks. Only new mountain ranges indicate plate borders (think the Himalayas). And Turkey isn't even close to the Ural, river or mountain range.

And Turkey is partly part of Europe; 3% of it's land area is within Europe!

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Colon
It's on a separate continental plate, that's why there's this mountain range in the Urals.

Originally posted by Sava
Earth science 100

pwned twice in one thread che...

quit while you are ahead (errr... or before you get further behind I should say)

Sava, does it hurt to be sooooo wrong.

That'll teach Sava to rely on someone else's assertions.

[RGBVideo]

"America" is a general term...

Europe is a specific term... a continent... a defined area...

Uhhhm, no. "America" is a term for two artificially divided continents, North and South America. "America" is much more easily definable than "Europe", since "America" is a very big island while "Europe" has land connections to Asia -- this is why half the world counts the three mini-states in Caucasus as part of Asia and half the world as part of Europe.

Btw, India doesn't have it's own continental plate, it shares its plate with Australia AFAIK.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
There's also the possibility that as Turkey will try to do its homework, the EU will also somehow restructure its decision making procedures and streamline its system to admit Turkey without the embarassment of pleading indigestion at the last moment.

If the EU miraculously manages to do so, I doubt it will be because of Turkey. The impending arrival of Turkey might press the schedule a bit, but in any case, such a streamlining requires a strong political will to begin with. One that is lacking in Europe.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

and all this lawyerin is exactly why i dont see switzerland (or norway) joinin the EU in the next 10 - 20 years. turkey will be a net drain on the EU budget for the forseeable future (and being one of the richest countires in europe, we would be the idiots payin out much more than we recieve.) there is nothing to gain and everything to lose for us. (but much to gain and nothing to lose for the EU.)

faut pas exagerer quand meme.

[Varwnos]

it is hard to imagine that any of the referendums will not be the end of this. The french one is in 2006, so perhaps this will be a rather short-lived affair. In any case it will be an interesting referendum to watch.

[BeBMan]

The French referendum is next year? That's strange - everone think it will take at least 10 years, probably more before Turkey can actually become a full member. Making a referendum next year that could end the process is not a good idea.

[Spiffor]

The French referendum isn't planned. It was a promise of Chirac's, and nothing more. Chirac is a noted liar, there is thus absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that the French will vote on TUrkey's membership.