American Arrogance Rooted in Christian Beliefs

[aneeshm]

These things take time , sad to say . And education in the villages is hindered by the caste system . But it will happen , and happen in my lifetime ( because it has already begun today ) .

[C0ckney]

it is hard to debate with someone who refuses to accept the blindingly obvious :/

It is relevant to how this debate is framed , and thus I care , and you should . If you do not , then your arguments cease to matter .

no, your narrow and incorrect view of things are not the terms for this debate. sorry.

The organisations you mentioned have presented only one side of the story - the side which will get them more funding .

human rights watch and UNESCO?!? you're talking bollocks sunshine.

As soon as education among the population crosses a tipping point , the caste structure will unravel in the villages ( as it did in the cities ).

call me cynical but that sounds a lot like 'sometime never' to me...

you keep harping on about reservations and other 'advantages' dalits get over others in india and i don't doubt that they get a little help from the government in certain areas. surely though this is like taking a piss in the atlantic ocean, when you compare it to the grinding poverty, discrimination, abuse and other indignities that hundreds of millions of dalits suffer on a daily basis.

you (once again...) appear to have missed the point regarding religion. it is crystal clear that the caste system is intertwined with hinduism and forms the basis of the social structure in rural areas (most of the country). being a dalit here affects everything, from even the most basic things like not being allowed to fetch water from the same well as upper- caste people. these, and many similar examples are all detailed in the links i have provided. it also extends to religious matters, you can't say that it isn't about religion when dalits are banned from temples and stopped by police from taking part in religious festivals.

from the human rights overview quoted earlier-

In one widely noted incident in July 2004, for example, police used excessive force against Dalits who tried to participate in a religious festival in Tamil Nadu.

hinduism is a huge part of the problems that dalits face, and i'll tell you who agrees with me, the dalits themselves, many of whom wish to escape the caste system by abandoning hinduism

50,000 DALITS EMBRACE BUDDHISM

History repeated itself in the land of Buddhism’s birthplace when over 50,000 Hindu Dalits (Untouchables or lower-caste) marched with flags, shouting slogans against the upper caste Hindu’s oppression and joined Buddhism in Indian Capital New Delhi on November 4.

Nearly half a century ago, in 1956, over 5 million Dalits led by the popular Dalit leader B.R. Ambedkar who framed the Indian constitution, had renounced Hinduism and joined Buddhism to escape from the caste system which discriminates them as untouchables and forces slavery. About 300 million Dalits have been facing social inequality and the stigma of low-caste for 3,000 years in India.

...

Anand Kumar, who came with a group of over 3,000 Dalits from Uttar Pradesh State, says, “Dalit Hindus have been exploited for centuries. We are not treated equally and not shown respect. Dalits are powerful and can change the country. This is the message we have come to give here by changing our religion to Buddhism where we would be treated as equals, not low-caste.”

this clearly concerns many right wing hindus and there have been moves to stop dalits who try to escape caste stigma, by exercising their religious freedom, from some authorities, such as, gujarat

Politicians in India's western state of Gujarat have approved a controversial bill ostensibly designed to stop forced religious conversions.

But many opponents say it could be used to target Christian and Muslim minority communities.

...

Under the terms of the bill, a conversion must be assessed by officials and prior permission given by the District Magistrate to be lawful.

Conversions which are found to be genuine and voluntary but where prior permission was not secured from the District Magistrate could also be punished with up to one year in prison and a fine of 1,000 rupees ($20).

...

Many describe Christian and Muslim communities as still in a state of shock after riots last year in which officially 1,000 people (and unofficially more than 2,000 people), the majority of them Muslim, were killed by mostly Hindu mobs.

Subsequent reports into the violence, including an internal report by the British Government, concluded that the violence was pre-planned by right wing Hindu groups and that the chief minister was involved.

"The nightmare Gujarat has experienced means every such move smells of some other intention," said Prakash Shah, convenor of the Movement for Secular Democracy in Gujarat.

"This government is still bent on continuing the blood-soaked action of last year."

...

Concerns about the way the bill could be used to harass minorities have increased since reports of a recent census of Christians in Gujarat.

John Dayal, the secretary general of the All India Christian Council, has just returned to Delhi after visiting Rajkot in central Gujarat.

He told the BBC that he had interviewed Christian villagers in the area who had recently been questioned about their religion by police officers.

Nuns and priests, he said, had been asked about the source of their funding, why they were in the state, whether or not they had converted people and if so, how many.

Villagers who were Christians told him they'd been asked, he said, how long they had been Christians, why they had converted and what was wrong with their previous religion.

The survey - and the prospect of the bill - were alarming many in the Christian community, he said.

"This introduces a sense of licensing in the state and of pre-emptive permission," he said. "Unless the state desires, you can't change religion."

what was that about barbarians?

if you're going to reply, then would it be too much to ask for some evidence to back up your claims.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by aneeshm
These things take time , sad to say . And education in the villages is hindered by the caste system . But it will happen , and happen in my lifetime ( because it has already begun today ) .

Taking quite a while, isn't it? Brazil, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, even lowly Nigeria all have a better literacy scores than India. Perhaps you should think about being a bit more aggressive in promoting education.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by molly bloom



I'm familiar with Trimurti and other aspects of Hinduism- it was meant as a joke.



How could the temples and priests not benefit from Hindu expansionist states, especially if the Hindu rulers of those states saw it as an act of piety to commemorate military victories with either new temple building, or patronage or donations to pre-existing temples ?

http://www.templenet.com/Articles/hintemp.html

Now it doesn't take a genius to understand that if temples are maintained by royal donations, then it is in their interest to keep those donations flowing, yes ?

And so if Chola or Gupta rulers decide to go abroad to non-Hindu kingdoms, such as Buddhist Sri Lanka, or Sumatra or Burma, or Malaysia and do a little bit of conquering and destroying and plundering, then evidently (judging by the temples founded after the said military campaigns) priests and temples profitted from the imperialist policies of Hindu dynasties.

The issue is not whether or not they benefited from such policies - it is whether or not they encouraged said policies ( and also whether they were supposed to ) . If they benefited from them , but did not encourage them , then the issue is moot . If they did , but were not supposed to , then they are acting against Hinduism .

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Christians suck. Christians blow. And when they're in charge, no matter what, you're gonna get screwed.

By Christians do you mean Catholic Girls, cause if so then I agree completely.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by aneeshm





Christianity is , by its very nature , a religion out to get converts . The drive for converts itself is a sign of intolerance . This is because , if you want to convert someone , it is because you believe him to be wrong in his religion . Therefore , the fountainhead of Christianity is not that Christ is right , but that everyone else is wrong . And that is why I criticise it - a religion based on a negative ( the rejection of every other religion ) can never be a force for the good .

no, it is because you like your way better, and wish to share

JM

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sikander


By Christians do you mean Catholic Girls, cause if so then I agree completely.

Catholic school girls rule...

In the class she’s taking notes
Just how deep deep is my throat
Mother mary don’t you know
She’s got eyes like marylin monroe

Catholic school girls rule...

From the cross she’s raised her head
This is what the sister said
Give no love until you’re wed
Live no life until you’re dead

The good books says we must suppress
The good books says we must confess
But who cares what the good books says
Cause now she’s taking off her dress

Catholic school girls rule...

Lead us into temptation
We are pure divine creation
Talkin’ about my generation
Injected with the seed of emaculation
Catholic !

[Sikander]

I like how aneeshm likes to surgically segregate his religion (Hinduism) from the culture of which it is a vital part (caste system has nothing to do with Hinduism, Hinduism is against conquest etc.) while he refuses to do the same for Christianity. I even agree with him that the semitic religions tendency for intolerance are in part due to their dogma, but it is a much more complicated situation than a simple comparison of dogmas will show. There are plenty of pacifists in the Christian world and plenty of bloodthirsty Hindus.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Sandman


Taking quite a while, isn't it? Brazil, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, even lowly Nigeria all have a better literacy scores than India. Perhaps you should think about being a bit more aggressive in promoting education.

What has this to do with a comparison of religions ?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


no, it is because you like your way better, and wish to share

JM

Then it seems that Christian missionaries are pretty damn desperate to share . And that sharing has taken some rather unpleasant forms .

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sikander
I like how aneeshm likes to surgically segregate his religion (Hinduism) from the culture of which it is a vital part (caste system has nothing to do with Hinduism, Hinduism is against conquest etc.) while he refuses to do the same for Christianity.

Troll thread. It's wise to treat it as such. Though I will grant that aneeshm seems to be better at the art than Ted.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Sikander
I like how aneeshm likes to surgically segregate his religion (Hinduism) from the culture of which it is a vital part (caste system has nothing to do with Hinduism, Hinduism is against conquest etc.) while he refuses to do the same for Christianity. I even agree with him that the semitic religions tendency for intolerance are in part due to their dogma, but it is a much more complicated situation than a simple comparison of dogmas will show. There are plenty of pacifists in the Christian world and plenty of bloodthirsty Hindus.

I agree that a simple comparison of dogmas may not suffice , but it is the only comaprison by which a religion ( and only the religion ) can be judged , without such judgment being affected by the actions of its adherents .


I agree that there are plenty of Christian pacifists , and quite a few bloodthirsty Hindus , but what we have to look at is whether or not such pacifism or bloodthirstiness is a part of the religion in question .

[Saras]

So, do you assert that bloodthirstiness is part of Christian religion in general?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Troll thread. It's wise to treat it as such. Though I will grant that aneeshm seems to be better at the art than Ted.

I know not whether to take that as a compliment , or to be disheartened , because I'm not trolling , I'm serious .

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Saras
So, do you assert that bloodthirstiness is part of Christian religion in general?

No , but I assert that Christian dogma is structured such that , to stay true to it , adherents will have to be violent , in one way or the other .