Hurricane Katrina and Singapore

[phoenixcager]

Originally posted by Tingkai


You mean other than Hsien Loong's wife being the head of the government investment fund, or sons becoming brigadier generals in the Singaporean military. But of course, they all got these positions on merit.

Ho Ching, Lee Hsien Loong's 2nd wife (his first wife passed on), was already doing pretty well before he married her.

Singapore has a large number of reservist/ retired Brigadier Generals (many of whom were Armed Forces scholars), and it is not difficult to see how Lee Hsien Loong and his brother rose to the rank, with or without the alleged "family influence".

I still don't see how this amounts to what you originally called members of the family "being (placed in) high level positions throughout the government."

Anyway, what's the big deal in all this? The U.S. has its Kennedys and Bushes.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Tingkai
As far as I know, Malaysia has never invaded or threatened to invade Singapore, and neither has Indonesia.

The three countries have their disputes, but it is far different from mainland China - Taiwan and North and South Korea where wars have been fought.

Well, we live and learn:

Phase 1: 7/31/1962

A Federation of Malaysia, to include the Federation of Malaya, Singapore, and the British territories of Sarawak, Sabah, and Brunei on the predominantly Indonesian island of Borneo, was planned for 1963. President Sukarno of Indonesia was suspicious of plans for retaining British bases after federation. At the same time he was also in quest of prestige to avoid crises with his Army and with Indonesian Communists.

Phase 2: 1/1963

As part of Indonesia's policy of "confrontation" Malaysia was termed hostile by Indonesia after two divisions were reported to have volunteered for training to assist a Brunei revolt.

Phase 3: 1/12/1963

Small Indonesian bands infiltrated Sarawak. The Pan-Malay Manila Accord was signed in August, but the Federation came into being in September before a UN on-site survey was completed. The latter confirmed local support for the Federation, but Sukarno promptly affirmed his intention to "crush Malaysia" and extend military action to the mainland. In September 1964 a UNSC resolution following a Malaysian complaint was vetoed by the USSR. Early 1965 saw political turmoil preceding the August separation of Singapore from the Federation. Mainland incursions ceased, though Borneo raids continued.

Settled: 10/1/1965

The aborted coup in Indonesia ended the confrontation, and hostilities were formally terminated at Bangkok on June 1 1966.

http://web.mit.edu/cascon/cases/case_imc.html

Indonesia's opposition to the 1963 establishment of the Federation of Malaysia presented the only known external threat to Singapore since Japanese occupation.

After September 1964, Indonesia discontinued military operations targeting Singapore. In March 1965, however, a Singapore infantry battalion deployed on the southern coast of Johor was involved in fighting against a small Indonesian force that was conducting guerrilla operations in the vicinity of Kota Tinggi. Indonesia supported Singapore's separation from Malaysia in 1965 and used diplomatic and economic incentives in an unsuccessful effort to encourage the Lee administration to sever its defense ties with Malaysia and Britain.

http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guide-study/singapore/singapore159.html

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
This comes from the person who claimed that he was refused admittance to medicine because he poked holes in the dean's theory of memory.

This is an arguement? I don't believe that I made that claim. You drew that conclusion. I merely stated that I pointed out holes in his theory. The fact that you are bringing this up after...what was that...5 years ago demonstrates how truly bothers you. I said that then as well. It seems that you have some insecurity issues to deal with because this has nothing to do with what has been discussed.

I am sure your memory is very good, and your recall is flawless.

I wasn't arguing whether recall your is flawless. I was arguing about your faulty reasoning based on what you don't know. The crux of your arguments in that post and others was that it must be true because you can't remember ever hearing of a counter. What does your little logical flaw dictionary call this?

Sadly, I will not get a proper response from you. Time and again you have failed to directly challenge my arguments. Just look above: You first bring something up that has nothing to do with the issue at all. Then you try to sidetrack the issue with another moot point. Frankly, I don't think you are capable of arguing correctly at all. You've spent all your time with your nose in that logical flaw dictionary that you can't think any other way. Now since I've exposed this, the best response I can hope to get from you is insults or simply covering your ears and pretending it didn't happen.

How am I able to counter you with such ease? As I said, I see this line of reasoning often among CCP members and other people brainwashed here in China to believe some of the most absurd things based on nothing but propaganda and their own insecurity. I deal with this daily. Or used to, since I don't teach full-time anymore.

[phoenixcager]

molly bloom - Don't forget one of the highlights of the Indonesian 'Confrontation' or Konfrontasi - the MacDonald House bombing in Singapore

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/MacDonald_House_bombing

http://www.answers.com/topic/indonesia-malaysia-confrontation

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Well, we live and learn:

What's the point of your post? It shows no threat against Singapore. All your posts show is conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by phoenixcager


Ho Ching, Lee Hsien Loong's 2nd wife (his first wife passed on), was already doing pretty well before he married her.

Singapore has a large number of reservist/ retired Brigadier Generals (many of whom were Armed Forces scholars), and it is not difficult to see how Lee Hsien Loong and his brother rose to the rank, with or without the alleged "family influence".

I still don't see how this amounts to what you originally called members of the family "being (placed in) high level positions throughout the government."

Anyway, what's the big deal in all this? The U.S. has its Kennedys and Bushes.

Ho Ching was a minor executive when she got married, no?

While Singapore may have many generals, it is rather odd for someone in their 30s to become a general. But of course the Lee brothers are amazing leaders, eh.

And look up the meaning of nepotism.

As for the Kennedys and the Bushes, those who have achieved political office were elected, not appointed.

Let's also consider the fact that no one in Singapore is allowed to comment on Lee family members being appointed to government jobs unless they want to get sued as has happened to several news organizations. The Lees have muzzled open discussions of their little empire.

[:) Smiley]

Dictatorship and Democracy are not all that different for the average citizen. While in the US people can complain about Bush, all the complaining from media and people have not had any effect on policy.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Tingkai

What's the point of your post? It shows no threat against Singapore. All your posts show is conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia.

Do you know, I could have sworn it mentioned Singapore.

Right where it said :

Indonesia's opposition to the 1963 establishment of the Federation of Malaysia presented the only known external threat to Singapore since Japanese occupation.

and then when it said:

After September 1964, Indonesia discontinued military operations targeting Singapore. In March 1965, however, a Singapore infantry battalion deployed on the southern coast of Johor was involved in fighting against a small Indonesian force that was conducting guerrilla operations in the vicinity of Kota Tinggi.

I could be mistaken- clearly here Singapore might mean, oohh, Surinam, Iceland or perhaps Afars and Issas- depending on one's political point of view or the degree of small-mindedness one possesses.

[Tingkai]

So? Indonesia had problems with Malaysia at a time when Singapore was part of Malaysia.

At that time there was a minor firefight between Indonesian and Malaysian troops (the latter happened to be Singaporean).

But, your post states: "Indonesia supported Singapore's separation from Malaysia in 1965."

So when Singapore becomes independent, it becomes an friends with Indonesia. Whatever dispute existed between Indonesia and Malaysia no longer applied to Singapore.

Your post shows no threat against the city-state of Singapore.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Your post shows no threat against the city-state of Singapore.

What on earth do you think a federation is ?


Where do you think Indonesia killed the inhabitants of Singapore in the Macdonald House bombing ?

Oh, I know, Singapore suddenly stopped being the city state of Singapore when it joined in a temporary federation with other ex-colonies- it stopped having a unique culture, language and cuisine and Singaporeans became instant Malaysians.

Really, you can do better than this you know.

http://www2.mha.gov.sg/mha/isd/newisd_earlyyears.html

[lord of the mark]

ok fine, the Konfrontasi was a threat to Singapore - one need not get talmudical about Singapores status in the Malaysian fed.

Its still hard to see how the Indonesian threat to Singapore, post 1965, matches the threats to South Korea and Taiwan.

Tingkai remains correct in the larger view - LKY's accomplishments are overrated.


Of course since the current govt of China looks to LKY as a model, it will probably be difficult to get a calm assesement of LKY.

[Tingkai]

Yup, and I fear that you are right about China looking at Singapore as a model. China would be much better off emulating the Japanese model, a one party state, but with much more freedoms. Of course China won't because of the past.

[chequita guevara]

China would be better off going democratic communist . . . but I'm biased.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
China would be better off going democratic communist . . . but I'm biased.

Then theyd get vet spies, AND unbribeble cities - theyd be unbeatable

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Its still hard to see how the Indonesian threat to Singapore, post 1965, matches the threats to South Korea and Taiwan.

Firstly I wasn't being talmudical, nor was I engaging in pilpul or even Jesuitical casuistry. Clearly Tingkai wasn't aware of Indonesia's aggression against Singapore, then attempted a pointless saveface.

Now what kind of threat might Indonesia pose to Singapore ?

Singapore Total Population was 4.24 million in Jun 2004.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/

Confined to a small citystate, part of whose water supply is derived from another nation.

Indonesia on the other hand has a population of:

242 million (2005 est.). Indonesia is the fourth most populous nation in the world after China, India and the United States.

http://www.expat.or.id/info/overview.html

Indonesia has a corrupt politically minded military, which has seen combat experience against Singapore and Malaya (oh, sorry, Malaysia...) Irian Jaya and East Timor- as well as Indonesia's own citizens.

Indonesia has seen large scale massacres of Indonesian civilians of ethnic Chinese descent :

Tens of thousands of ethnic Chinese died in the carnage that ripped through Indonesia in the wake of President Suharto's coming to power in 1965.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4312805.stm

There were significant anti-Chinese riots in 1998 too, resulting in extensive looting, property damage, rapes and murders.

Singapore has an ethnic Chinese majority.

Indonesia has shown a blatant disregard for the rule of law, both internally and externally, in its illegal annexation of Irian Jaya and East Timor and suppression of dissident movements.

Perhaps having experienced Indonesia's neighbourliness already, Singapore is simply acting in its own best interests, as the Singaporean military's website points out:

Many people think of Total Defence as a defence strategy or plan that is rolled out only during times of war. But it is more than that.
Total Defence is about the different things that we can do everyday in every sector of our society to strengthen our resilience as a nation. When we take National Service seriously, participate in civil emergency exercises, upgrade ourselves and learn new skills, build strong bonds with different races and religions, and feel the pride of being Singaporean, we contribute to Total Defence.

Introduced in 1984, the concept of Total Defence was adapted from the experience in Switzerland and Sweden. There are two reasons why we adopted it. First, as a young nation with a small population, we cannot afford to maintain a regular armed forces. Thus, we need to involve every Singaporean to multiply our defence capability. Second, the nature of modern warfare has changed. Wars are no longer limited to the battlefield. Instead, potential aggressors can strike in less obvious, non-military ways. The five elements of Total Defence work together as a comprehensive defence strategy for Singapore.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/about_us/defence_policy.html