Bush has failed

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I made this exact point at the start of this thread, at which point I was given this..

At which point I called them hypocrits.

This is the type of crap I am dealing with when critisizing someone, anyone, is more important that getting a real, logical, relative grasp of ths situation.

hypocrites.
Wrong, that's the crap you deal with when you do the exact same ****ing thing against other people. You're criticising every single person here who's been critical of the disaster management, while you yourself are doing nothing different.

Put another way: are we only allowed to criticise when we're the ones on the ground? If that's the case, then might I direct you to all the people who are actually there, handing down the complaints? How is it that almost everybody there including the ones NOT being interviewed by the mainstream media, such as those in the blogosphere (Gulf Sails Blog), are painting a picture where the Government's aid isn't being distributed well, that the disaster management isn't effective? Why is it that most of the people who are saying things are going well are politicians, or those connected with them?

I said things are going as well as can be expected, or should be expected, and am basically railing against the ASSUMPTIONS of others, which are all negative.

The assumption is that we're in the greatest country in the world. The assumption is that while we might not have seen a disaster like this in recent memory, we're a good enough country, a bright enough country, a strong enough country, that the devolution of a city doesn't happen. Sure, we've had riots. We've had bad hurricanes. We've had major earthquakes which have crippled our infrastructure.

We haven't had a disaster were there's been a lack of leadership, where there's been a lack of genuine hope. We haven't had a disaster where people are being called "refugees" in America--it's always been "evacuees". We haven't had a disaster where the looters are, in at least one source, being called "insurgents".

This kind of **** doesn't happen in America. It can't. It shouldn't. But it has.

So pardon us critics for collectively saying, "What the ****? How the ****? Why the ****?" Pardon us for not blindly believing every single press conference the dumbasses we elect into power provide. Politicians all lie--and of course, in the interest of making things look better, appear better, which for all intents and purposes means that things are better--they're saying that everything in New Orleans is coming up just rosy.

I criticize him all the time, any one care to discuss the disbanding of the Iraqi Army?

Irrelevant.
At least in terms of my beef with you.

That he is screaming bloody murder because people have not stopped the rotation of the Earth to help out those in NO, when he has has done nothing more than anyone else.

What would it take for you think he's not a poser? That he actually does go out and stop the rotation of the earth?

Maybe he did have high, optimistic hopes about what could have, should have been done. What does that make you, a fatalist? A pessimist? For expecting things to be no better, in the ****ing greatest country on Earth?

[lightblue]

I think it's telling that Patroklos is ignoring the posts of Geronimo, who iirc is also a military man and quite well known as someone who supports Bush.

You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made. I don't think many people are blaming Bush solely, though some of his policies will affected the ability of the country to deal with, but all in all the leadership from mayor, through governor, to senators, heads of FEMA or Homeland Security and yes maybe even Bush has been lacking.

[Patroklos]

Wrong, that's the crap you deal with when you do the exact same ****ing thing against other people. You're criticising every single person here who's been critical of the disaster management, while you yourself are doing nothing different.

Its called feeding them their own logic, which undermined their original position, which was to the tune that we should have flooded the place with 1 million troops.

So pardon us critics for collectively saying, "What the ****? How the ****? Why the ****?" Pardon us for not blindly believing every single press conference the dumbasses we elect into power provide. Politicians all lie--and of course, in the interest of making things look better, appear better, which for all intents and purposes means that things are better--they're saying that everything in New Orleans is coming up just rosy.

I haven't done this, but apparently while it is a crime against humanity to believe your talking heads, it is perfectly alright to outright assume them to be liers all the time without any reason to do so. That was a poor retort.

What would it take for you think he's not a poser? That he actually does go out and stop the rotation of the earth?

Considering the level of his attacks against others, anything less than taking out a 100,000 dollar loan, selling his house and belongings, and sending that money to the Red Cross, and then throwing himself with MOBIUS into the levee breach to stop the waters might make him not a poser.

His unrealistic and illogical demands for the relief effort can similarly be turned onto him.

Or he could apply a little common sense to his demands, and I would not consider him a hypocrite for his contributions. Rather, I would consider him to be a normal person contributing what should be expected of him.

[Patroklos]

You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made. I don't think many people are blaming Bush solely, though some of his policies will affected the ability of the country to deal with, but all in all the leadership from mayor, through governor, to senators, heads of FEMA or Homeland Security and yes maybe even Bush has been lacking.

Geronimo has said nothing unique that my other posts do not address.

Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible.

You honestly can't say that the response to this has been faultless. Or that an unacceptable number of mistakes haven't been made.

Have made no such claim, ANYWHERE, and I do not fing the number of mistakes to be acceptable, but rather expected for this occurance.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by lightblue
I think it's telling that Patroklos is ignoring the posts of Geronimo, who iirc is also a military man and quite well known as someone who supports Bush.

I actually have trouble believing this guy is actually in the Navy to be honest...

He's made up other stuff, so why not this? Especially failing to correctly spell the names of two ships he serves with - if I did that I'd have to kill myself out of shame...

[Patroklos]

if I did that I'd have to kill myself out of shame

Don't tease us.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible.

Speaking for myself alone, if you'd paid any attention instead of rushing to give Bush a hummer, you would know that I hold all levels of government responsible for the collosal cluster **** this is.

Unlike you, I am actually well aware of how quickly the Feds can come in. My state got clobbered by four major hurricanes last year. The Feds and state were Johnny on the spot. We were hammered, in the space of two months with four monster storms. My friends in Orlando got hit with three of them!

As soon as the storm was over the Feds were there.

Do I expect the same level of service for those in Biloxi and NOLA. Damn straight I do! They may take longer to get results, given the level of devestation, but there is no good reason why people had to wait so long for food, water, and rescue.

That you keep saying that what's happening is as good as can be expected either means you are completely clueless or you are a flaming liar.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Geronimo has said nothing unique that my other posts do not address.

Perhaps you should read the thread title, and then the thread, and then tell me who Che, Agathon, Sava, MOBIUS, and a host of others hold responsible.

Have made no such claim, ANYWHERE, and I do not fing the number of mistakes to be acceptable, but rather expected for this occurance.

I hold everyone from the Mayor up responsible to varying degrees of incompetence - but the person with the ultimate power is Bush...

I am not just out for Bush (though I feel he and his administration deserve the lion's share), I am also particularly pissed about the fact that the poor were not evacuated in the first place - and that is not Bush's fault!

So **** you for putting words in my mouth through your total inabilty to actually understand what people on this forum are talking about...

[lightblue]

Pah, for the last 6 or 7 pages it's only been a very few people that blame Bush directly. I mean a lot of this would've happened with Kerry or Clinton in power as well. Bush just does not seem to projecting th needed leaderhip at the moment, and in a way I don't think he really cares, and resents it distracting from iraq (though i guess it hid those 1000 Shias that died on pilgrimage last week quite well).

I don't think I've ever been an out and out Bush basher. I disagree with some of his policies, fair enough, but as I am not a US citizen all but a few (Kyoto, Iraq) do not affect me. You can trust me though that if Blair and the ministers responsible for these things would ever screw up like that in England they'd be out on their ear before you know. In fact the labour MPs would probably happily vote along with a vote of no confidence. Whereas the US seems to have turned into a personality cult surrounding the glorious leader, making him out like he's better than others, and that he's above fault. TBH it surprises me that there aren't statues of him springing up all around the US...

/rant and hyperbole off

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Especially failing to correctly spell the names of two ships he serves with

Give it up. That's an honest mistake. It's petty to harp on little crap like this, when he's giving excuses for the FUBAR in the Gulf.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Don't tease us.

Fake.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Its called feeding them their own logic, which undermined their original position, which was to the tune that we should have flooded the place with 1 million troops.

It's.
And that would help... how? Frankly, while that might have been the position of some of the people here, it wasn't mine. It wasn't any of the people I know IRL. All of them aren't complaining that there's a lack of military presence; no, they're complaining that it doesn't look like anything we're doing is really helping, mostly because it doesn't look like we're doing anything well.
Don't put words into my mouth, don't assign positions to me that I don't ascribe to.

I haven't done this, but apparently while it is a crime against humanity to believe your talking heads, it is perfectly alright to outright assume them to be liers all the time without any reason to do so. That was a poor retort.

liars.
Why should we trust our talking heads? And since when did I even suggest it was even tantamount to a crime against humanity? Must you trivialize crimes against humanity?
No, Patroklos, the reason why you don't trust talking heads is because everybody lies. It doesn't matter why they do it, but they will. True, it's not a pleasant aspect of humanity, and quite a pessimistic view.
Here's why I think they're going to be lying about the full scope: their jobs are on the line. Their asses, figuratively speaking, are being held over the crucible of a disaster of such a scope that it's shocking and painful for America to see. They know that unless they manage some hail mary pass, they're ****ed; indeed, with the current chaos, no matter how it all gets resolved, the first week of Katrina and NOLA will be remembered as one of error after error, anarchy, and exacerbating conditions, when everything just broke down. (When our technology works, it works wonderfully. When it breaks, it breaks horribly. We're seeing that now.)
Nagin's probably exaggerating quite a bit--his beautiful city's in ruins; born and raised there, it's probably not something he ever wanted to see. So naturally, he's going to want to paint an apocalyptic picture so more aid can be brought quicker, and faster.
Landrieux, the Governor, Congress, and Bush all probably want to paint a picture that's a lot less devastating. Why? Because no matter how you cut it, we've lost a city. That does NOT look good on a resume, and it sure as hell doesn't endear you to the people. They want us to think that things are going as best as they can, not so much for themselves directly, but for themselves indirectly. All the agencies and departments involved are, in one way or another, a reflection on the current leadership--and if they look bad, they make those in power look bad. It's why the few bad apples in Abu Ghraib make the whole Army look like monsters, when it's very clear it's really... just a few bad apples. It's why when FEMA can't get its **** together, it makes Bush's appointee, Brown, look like an incompetent ****wit, and Bush like an idiot for trusting him with something like FEMA.

This is why they're going to lie. The truth is never going to be what they say on tv, it's never going to be what they give to the media.

And hell, there's always the basic, intelligent position of questioning everything, approaching everything from a mildly skeptic point of view. If you question everything, you can peel away the layers of deceit and more closely approach the truth. At least, that's what I picked up from my education--which, alas, was at one of those silly liberal universities (aside from the econ and poli sci departments).

I'm sorry if you thought my belief that they'd be untrustworthy on air was unfounded. It wasn't.
Please. Your reply was hardly a rebuttal at all.

Considering the level of his attacks against others...His unrealistic and illogical demands for the relief effort can similarly be turned onto him...Or he could apply a little common sense to his demands, and I would not consider him a hypocrite for his contributions. Rather, I would consider him to be a normal person contributing what should be expected of him.

Fair enough--I honestly haven't been paying that close attention to the pissing match you and Guy have been having; the only reason I was even on your case was from what parts I saw, it seemed to be a rather illogical case of you going after one guy with very little rationale.

[Patroklos]

Speaking for myself alone, if you'd paid any attention instead of rushing to give Bush a hummer, you would know that I hold all levels of government responsible for the collosal cluster **** this is.

So you hold Bush responsible, thanks.

Unlike you, I am actually well aware of how quickly the Feds can come in. My state got clobbered by four major hurricanes last year. The Feds and state were Johnny on the spot. We were hammered, in the space of two months with four monster storms. My friends in Orlando got hit with three of them!

I was in Hugo.

And just how did the Feds get so good Che? Is it because they have responded to that area a dozen times in the last decade? Is it becuase they know the area, have leaned from before? What is the major differance between a Florida hurricane and a New Orleans one that the people have never had do deal with on such a scale?

And finally, how fast was their resonce to the first major Florida hurricane?

That you keep saying that what's happening is as good as can be expected either means you are completely clueless or you are a flaming liar.

Or I am not letting my emotions get in the way of my thought process.

[Guynemer]

Exactly what part of my "demands" are unrealistic, Pat?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by MOBIUS


I actually have trouble believing this guy is actually in the Navy to be honest...

Dude, the guy just has trouble with spelling, in case you haven't noticed. Give it a rest.